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reggiebusbee
01-07-2011, 05:32 PM
this is a letter from law firm, it said shut down a site where i had payed there month member ship [ dish ] dish have my user name & password dish want me to pay 3500.00 to settle . never could get work. what can i do need help.

sodusme
01-07-2011, 05:38 PM
Interesting.....

Can we see the letter? Can you scan it in as I'd like to see it. Or post it somehow for us?

aid
01-07-2011, 05:46 PM
I would say do not contact them. It is not illegal to visit a site on the internet. Does the site have a jokes forum like this one? That is why I come here...good jokes are hard to come by lol

cruzat
01-07-2011, 06:07 PM
I come on for the outdoor forum and all of the political discussions.
Nothing illegal about that.

If you do post the letter make sure that blot out your real name and other personal information.

sodusme
01-07-2011, 06:20 PM
Is this maybe some how related to
www.iks(non-public)server.com that was shut down some time ago?...and than reopened with a new hosting server?

The o.p is kind of cryptic in his post and I'm not quite sure what he is referring to?

slickrod
01-07-2011, 09:32 PM
very interesting....or maybe a mole trying to scare some ppl straight?? watching this thread closely.....happy testing!!!

sodusme
01-07-2011, 10:05 PM
Maybe.....

wrangler
01-08-2011, 03:48 PM
If the OP is a mole he sure has been underground a long time. It sounds exactly like a Dave letter but then DN is using their playboock so who knows? Could it be that the games have begun? It seems that DN is working their way down the foodchain and now with the advent of codes being sold on Craigslist and E-bay it wouldn't surprise me at all. JMO! of course but I have seen this before and so has the OP.

1boxman
01-08-2011, 08:01 PM
If I remember....when dave did this ...courts stopped dave from sending out letters.

As it was just not to answer it . Unless they hand deliver it to personalty .

badboy32
01-09-2011, 01:19 AM
i would not worry dik has enough cash

wrangler
01-09-2011, 11:13 AM
Even though Charlie Ergan had almost 5 billion the last time I checked, there is never enough money. I'm not worried though as I don't, and have never used IKS except for about twenty minutes when I set a Limesat up. The only reason I may doubt the OP is that when Dave sent out letters, they sent out a lot of them and cleared upwards of 400 million. But I assume everyone here are adults and if TV is worth taking that kind of chance then go for it. I think I'll decline until a one way process is available.

sodusme
01-09-2011, 11:28 AM
I noticed the o.p hasn't come back to validate this.....

wrangler
01-09-2011, 11:38 AM
That's another point that decreases the credibility of his post although I don't know why he would lie about it. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if any more letters are forthcoming.

mark699
01-09-2011, 12:05 PM
its probably a internet scam. Maybe someone from the shutdown site got his info JMO

dalerulesu
01-09-2011, 02:44 PM
3500.00 is a standard Dishnet extortion (fishing) letter.

Admit nothing
Membership to a site proves nothing

reggiebusbee
01-09-2011, 03:05 PM
Here are most of what was received from attorney.

olympusom
01-09-2011, 03:13 PM
must be my eyes... even with a magnafying glass i cant read em.

sodusme
01-09-2011, 03:34 PM
Yeah it looks like it was a thumbnail that was uploaded. Please upload in a larger size if you can.

Gibson49
01-09-2011, 03:46 PM
Yea you can't blow up a Thumbnail image there is NO Quality to begin with..
Now a hint Oly if you have problems as I do...
holding the ctrl key down and then rotating the mouse wheel will + -
the screen image... but even DL this image the next size 125% the image is GONE!
Was this your letters or a Copy Paste from somewhere????
and why the thumbnails?

sodusme
01-09-2011, 04:07 PM
I've tried everything I can think of to get these to come out. I've tried online resizers, I've tried all the photo tools that I have. I've adjusted the sharpness, contrast, brightness, and every other level. Someone mentioned on a forum that photoshop will resize and keep quality. I don't have photoshop so I can't try it out.

If anyone wants to try it in photoshop its called 'bicubic smoother' to enlarge a photo and keep clarity. Doubt though that we can see it even than but it might be worth a try.

1919a6
01-09-2011, 04:24 PM
Waiting for the OP to repost.

reggiebusbee
01-09-2011, 05:38 PM
/http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16560691/letters/pg1.GIF[
/http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16560691/letters/pg2.GIF
/http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16560691/letters/pg3.GIF
/http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16560691/letters/pg4.GIF

sodusme
01-09-2011, 05:46 PM
Thanks Reggie. I re-upped these for you here on rookies since we're not supposed to leave live links. That way the mods can kill your links and we'll have the documents here on the site. :)

OK got 'em upped for you. They were in .GIF format I think is why. I changed 'em to .JPG and reupped them for you here on the site.

On a side note Reggie. I'm not sure but I think I would consult an attorney. You are in this kind of deep buddy since they have done their homework and have business records. I'm not sure that ignoring this type of letter with the evidence they have will make it go away. I think they may just end up entering a judgment against you.

This is not good....not good at all.

cruzat
01-09-2011, 06:01 PM
Thanks for uploading sodusme they work now.

As sodusme I would contact an attorney on this one.

I'm not sure but looks like you bought programming so that's different than just going to a web site.

Gibson49
01-09-2011, 06:58 PM
Thanks for all the uploading and help from ALL...
Sorta puts another warning on IKS now going after end users.
From Day #1 I thought IKS ICS whatever you call it....and anything related to it was BAD NEWS
for anyone so hard up to get TV

BTW... Now this also puts a new meaning on sites that say....
We Keep no RECORDS....

wrangler
01-09-2011, 07:32 PM
Just like all of the "offshore" sites that sold loader/unloopers for H/ HU cards and didn't keep any records. If you have the bucks then just pay them. It will be cheaper in the long run than getting an attorney and going to court. Besides, if they are playing it like Dave did, you'll just PO them and it will cost 3 to 5 times that amount. If many more of these letters are sent out it will be the end of IKS servers both public and private.

1969pontiac
01-09-2011, 07:39 PM
Gibson the best way to explain IKS is The Pied Piper

sodusme
01-09-2011, 07:44 PM
You might still consult an attorney but it may be best to just pay them off....if you can afford it. They can nickle dime you to death in attorney fees with delays and recesses and other non sense. Not to mention when I hired one some years back it was a $1000 retainer and I'm sure that has went up.

I wonder if this is how Kwak, Allison and Ward went out? That first phrase of the "acceptance" sounds awful familiar.....'execute a written statement, blah, blah, blah'

I'm sorry to read this Reggie and I hope everything turns out for you bud. I have a bad feeling though that this is just the tip of the iceburg.

wrangler
01-09-2011, 08:04 PM
I have the same feeling Sod and have been preaching about this for some time. There comes a point where TV is just not worth it and you should just punt! JMO! There will be another safer solution so I believe that I'll just wait.

newyorkrookie4356
01-09-2011, 09:00 PM
Not making light of 3500 bucks but i would use the letter for kitty litter, if i had a cat. Paying 3500 bucks is admitting to guilt. Anyone ever heard of a fishing expedition! You better believe if they had a good case against you they would be asking for more of your hide than 3500 bucks. If folks wanted safe maybe they should have Subbed and stayed out of the game. I guess being a safe pirate is like being a little bit pregnant. Maybe if all the folks who owe my city back parking fees paid -my property taxes would go away. Really most folks didn't come to this site in 2002,when i first joined, because Facebook hadn't been born yet. We came together for the fun of whacking Dave and then Charlie. We once were pirates. Most folks who got the 3500 buck Dave letters threw them in the garbage. Sure its gonna be someone who had a cousin of a cousin who paid. But in the real world i have gotten more out of this thing we did than 3500 bucks. -Just used to be fun being a Pirate. Can't get into predictors of the future and counting how much cash Charlie have amassed to pay his lawyers.

1919a6
01-09-2011, 09:35 PM
Its the whole send us a statement admitting to your guilt, letter that I have a problem with.

If they did this to me, I would simply pay the money and not admit to any guilt at all.

'Enclosed please find a check in the amount of $3500 for your demand letter. My attorney advises me to settle, since it would be more to fight you in court. By cashing this check you affirm that I have not admitted any guilt or knowledge of any alleged activities in this matter.'

sodusme
01-09-2011, 09:40 PM
There's a difference though between buying some unloopers and card readers/writers and cards themselves. You could argue a Dave defense....if you were crafty. There were and are many uses for the stuff Dave sued for.

Now fast forward to today and this guy gets a letter and you can bet your a$$ they already know what the 'fire n ice' is for. If they seized this guys website than they also seized his pirate operation lock, stock and barrel. With the Dave stuff they never actually 'caught' you doing anything....except buying some peripherals that could of been used for anything. I'm willing to wager there is only one use for 'fire n ice'. I'm also betting that Dark Angels stuff ain't running too good anymore so its safe to say they know how it ran, who ran it, and who bought it.

True it admits guilt by paying it OR you can have a default judgment entered against you. Its a crap shoot.

aid
01-09-2011, 09:52 PM
Its the whole send us a statement admitting to your guilt, letter that I have a problem with.

If they did this to me, I would simply pay the money and not admit to any guilt at all.

'Enclosed please find a check in the amount of $3500 for your demand letter. My attorney advises me to settle, since it would be more to fight you in court. By cashing this check you affirm that I have not admitted any guilt or knowledge of any alleged activities in this matter.'

Sorry but that would not work. For no one if innocent is going to send in 3500 bucks.

Gibson49
01-09-2011, 09:56 PM
I have a bad feeling though that this is just the tip of the iceburg.

I am sure a lot will develop and be posted NOW, if this continues I would consider this the END of IKS ??? JMO


Gibson the best way to explain IKS is The Pied Piper

That is for sure NOW, and now a BIG BEWARE!

olympusom
01-09-2011, 10:09 PM
paying for service... was there more to the "service"? games, weather ? much will depend on if it was straight iks

Blinky123
01-09-2011, 10:09 PM
Well I am not surprised at all. Myself and many other old timers have been warning this would start and everyone thought we were full of it. Although I hate to see it happen but this just why I completely stayed away from it. It's just not worth it.

I wish you all the best and hope it works out in you favour.

sodusme
01-09-2011, 10:20 PM
paying for service... was there more to the "service"? games, weather ? much will depend on if it was straight iks

Thats a good point however I doubt anyone will own up to it now...LOL. But yeah if there was some other reason you might be able to throw up some smoke and mirrors.

hedo2002
01-09-2011, 10:22 PM
Its the whole send us a statement admitting to your guilt, letter that I have a problem with.

If they did this to me, I would simply pay the money and not admit to any guilt at all.

'Enclosed please find a check in the amount of $3500 for your demand letter. My attorney advises me to settle, since it would be more to fight you in court. By cashing this check you affirm that I have not admitted any guilt or knowledge of any alleged activities in this matter.'

If you read the letter it CLEARLY states that the user MUST send in a statement that they will not purchase or use devices or services to obtain satellite services in the future. It then also asks for the $3500. so by not sending in the statement, (which would in effect be an admission), they will NOT accept his offer to settle and may launch further suits, without notice.

The killer in this case is that they have the order as well as confirmation of payment. Given that they can easily prove what Dark Angel was doing and it's SOLE use. The Op is screwed royally.

This simply proves my point ALL ALONG has been that dealing with a "PAY" server is a VERY VERY VERY bad idea they WILL roll on you. They can claim until the cows come home that they don't maintain records. BUT think about it, how do they confirm if you call say 45 days after buying a 90 day membership saying your down. So how can they confirm you have a 90 membership UNLESS they have a record of your purchase your name and code etc??? I have ALWAYS said these guys WILL roll on YOU in a heartbeat. Do you think if DN said to Dark Angel, ok here is the deal turn ALL your records over to us and we will go after you for $2.5 MILLION or don't co-operate and we will go after $90 MILLION as we have done in the past with other IKS server ops. What do YOU think the server op is going to do??

They are THIEVES they have NO honor and NO loyalty to YOU. It is save their OWN butts and "perhaps" walk away with a little something squirreled away.

IF ANYONE is STUPID enough to STILL buy into a PAY server don't look for ANY sympathy here and you best have that money sent within the 30 days or it could get VERY expensive

Gibson49
01-09-2011, 10:44 PM
Oh yes this proves they WILL roll on you and strike a deal to save their butt
FIRST... Sorta like the mob never keeps books... LOL
I would say the bonfire has started and very soon it will be quite
warm....
I expected this to happen, but took a lot longer for them to go after
the end users and individuals.
All the Big fish have swam off and the pickings are ripe for the small
fry but these can add up quick at $3500 a pick!
My only advise is BEWARE and careful as to what you sub to!
$3500 can buy a LOT of legal subscription! only my opinion...

wrangler
01-09-2011, 11:06 PM
A lot of little fish add up to more than one big fish. As I've already posted, Dave got almost a half a billion bucks from endusers with a very weak connection as smart cards can be used for multiple purposes. Now, we have people with a verified internet connection coupled with a money trail and no doubt screen shots. You would think that the OP would have learned from Dave letters but no. People, you can keep on hanging your a$$ out and your IP but it's all going to back on you. Myself and Blinky have always had the same theory on this and now it seems to be coming true. I guarentee that anyone who has used that site is now unplugging and throwing their STB in the trash. Unfortunetly, it's too late now so check your mailbox. We have warned you for years but you just blew us off. Good luck in the future.

newyorkrookie4356
01-09-2011, 11:09 PM
My side their side and the truth. I did a google on dark angel and after reading fifty pages i found nuthing. Maybe after getting a cup of coffee i will try again. My gut is telling me we are not hearing the whole story. Been using IKS for years and never had i had to enter a password and adopt a screen name. most time if it walks like a duck and has web feet -it is a duck. I guess all of us who used IKS for the last 6 or seven years are off the hook because Charlie is after the mom and pop Private Guys. -I think something is not being said about this whole thing. To me someone was being overly inept in the way they do business or we are just bored and need something to talk about.

sodusme
01-09-2011, 11:18 PM
Here's the only page on Dark Angel that matters....

Courtesy of: I think we all know where this came from. ;)


In late July 2010, DISH Network, EchoStar Technologies, NagraStar and **** TV commenced legal actions against an organization known as Dark Angel. Injunctions have been obtained and civil search orders executed against the founder of Dark Angel, known online as “echel0n”. The execution of the Orders resulted in the seizure of substantial evidence and information, the shutdown of Dark Angel’s illegal equipment, and shutdown of the websites
www.dark-angel.ca and
www.darkangel.com.pa The takeover of Dark Angel is another victory in NagraStar‘s continuing efforts to preempt satellite television piracy in North America.

wrangler
01-09-2011, 11:31 PM
No, it's more like an Ostrich, just stick your head in the sand and ignore it, I'm sure it will just go away. When will people learn that an internet connection can, and will be, traced. I'm guilty of taking the easy way out and using FTA but I draw the line at plugging into the computer or router. I'm just waiting for the hammer to fall now. Good luck with your IKS/ICS because it will cost you a lot of money.

newyorkrookie4356
01-09-2011, 11:51 PM
No, it's more like an Ostrich, just stick your head in the sand and ignore it, I'm sure it will just go away. When will people learn that an internet connection can, and will be, traced. I'm guilty of taking the easy way out and using FTA but I draw the line at plugging into the computer or router. I'm just waiting for the hammer to fall now. Good luck with your IKS/ICS because it will cost you a lot of money.

I think you been warning me for the last 6 years. Since the inception of IKS. I just hope me luck holds. If it doesn't well so be it. Maybe i can work out a payement plan. Getting seriously for a minute. Thanks for the warnings but every now and then Men have to m ake decisions they will have to live with. Went to church today so i think i got enuf preaching too. If folks want to have worry free boob tube i suggest they get a sub. And stop worrying about the mailman bringing tiding from charlie or dave.

wrangler
01-09-2011, 11:55 PM
My sentiments exactly NYR.

dalerulesu
01-10-2011, 06:30 AM
I'm not sure but looks like you bought programming so that's different than just going to a web site.

Yup....and that is the problem with online pay (private) servers

hedo2002
01-10-2011, 07:54 AM
Let's not forget they are not sending out this letter because the OP, merely "visited" a website or was registered there. It is because he subbed to their "PAY" server. Dark Angel NEVER was a PRIVATE server. it was ALWAYS a "PAY" server.

Also Dark Angel maintained pretty elaborate records of it's users, and this made it easy for DN to follow the trail.

I am still a little skeptical, of this letter, (I have NO idea how many people used Dark Angel), but one would think that we be seeing more people posting or asking about the letter they got as I doubt DN sent out ONE letter.

As for "preaching" we all know and love or hate Wranglers and others position on IKS, I don't personally agree with it 100% as there are "safe" ways to run via IKS, (but most end users don't, have access to such ways). When people are faced with a choice of reading and learning how to do something "safely" or the option of an "easy out" exist. MOST will take the "easy route" and that is when DN will be there.

kutter
01-10-2011, 07:55 AM
I think you been warning me for the last 6 years. Since the inception of IKS. I just hope me luck holds. If it doesn't well so be it. Maybe i can work out a payement plan. Getting seriously for a minute. Thanks for the warnings but every now and then Men have to m ake decisions they will have to live with. Went to church today so i think i got enuf preaching too. If folks want to have worry free boob tube i suggest they get a sub. And stop worrying about the mailman bringing tiding from charlie or dave.

I doubt there's a need to work out a payment plan ... just send them a letter telling them what they want to hear and a cheque for $100 bucks. Explain that you don't have the money to pay it all at once and that you will pay them monthly.

They will not push ahead with any further legal action because no judge will allow them to proceed if you are making an effort to comply with their demands. :)

Gary Gnu
01-10-2011, 08:22 AM
Yup....and that is the problem with online pay (private) servers

IMO its not the paid servers that are an issue.... Its all about the paper trail.
Other than the paper trail, a paid server is no different than using any public servers that remain, as far as risk goes.

Gary Gnu
01-10-2011, 09:01 AM
Did the courts not stop Dave from doing this to people ?
Why is DN getting away with what Dave couldnt ?

Its bad enough that they use all their own bogus precedents to back themselves up, but now they are going to change something that was already court ordered ?

stinkygirl
01-10-2011, 09:48 AM
Did the courts not stop Dave from doing this to people ?
Why is DN getting away with what Dave couldnt ?

Its bad enough that they use all their own bogus precedents to back themselves up, but now they are going to change something that was already court ordered ?

The courts never ruled against Dave's letters. As their new cards came out and weren't cracked the issue slowly died. you can bet that if they were cracked now their letters would start again.

hedo2002
01-10-2011, 10:14 AM
IMO its not the paid servers that are an issue.... Its all about the paper trail.
Other than the paper trail, a paid server is no different than using any public servers that remain, as far as risk goes.

There is NO paper trail to a "public server" there is ALWAYS a paper trail to a "pay server" Also "public servers" don't send you confirmation emails etc and records of payments that "Pay servers" do. Also "public servers" are NOT stealing the signal and then reselling it for a profit as are the "pay servers" Spo in the end "pay servers' ARE indeed the issue without the advent, (started by my buddies at nFusion), of pay servers there would be less likelihood of DN going after the end users

1boxman
01-10-2011, 12:03 PM
The courts never ruled against Dave's letters. As their new cards came out and weren't cracked the issue slowly died. you can bet that if they were cracked now their letters would start again.

Not ruled against letters but ...ruled against how they where doing it .

The EFF was monitoring them .. They had to proof there claim ..as they where all so sending them to innocence people .

So unless they can proof you where steeling personally and not just having equipment... they could not send out the letters .

There for letters stopped to a general mailing .

hedo2002
01-10-2011, 12:39 PM
Not ruled against letters but ...ruled against how they where doing it .

The EFF was monitoring them .. They had to proof there claim ..as they where all so sending them to innocence people .

So unless they can proof you where steeling personally and not just having equipment... they could not send out the letters .

There for letters stopped to a general mailing .

I agree Dave's approach was very far reaching and as such wasn't set up for a long term solution. They made several million off of it and as such by the executives it was likely judged internally to have been a success. I also think that when they stopped wide spread piracy of their signals it wasn't worth while to continue to pursue that course of action.

Charlie's approach (at least from what we have seen thus far), seems to be much more of a "pinpoint' strike. It could also be that Charlie having seen Dave made MILLIONS has decided that as a "business" move it has no down side. IF people cough up the money without any proof, (although in THIS case it seems the proof is pretty strong), then they make a few extra millions. Even IF they are told to stop sending the letters that could be MONTHS down the road and who knows how much they can rake in before then Again no REAL downside to it.

1boxman
01-10-2011, 12:49 PM
I agree Dave's approach was very far reaching and as such wasn't set up for a long term solution. They made several million off of it and as such by the executives it was likely judged internally to have been a success. I also think that when they stopped wide spread piracy of their signals it wasn't worth while to continue to pursue that course of action.

Charlie's approach (at least from what we have seen thus far), seems to be much more of a "pinpoint' strike. It could also be that Charlie having seen Dave made MILLIONS has decided that as a "business" move it has no down side. IF people cough up the money without any proof, (although in THIS case it seems the proof is pretty strong), then they make a few extra millions. Even IF they are told to stop sending the letters that could be MONTHS down the road and who knows how much they can rake in before then Again no REAL downside to it.

Exactly....as it was determined by courts in earlier years of the similar situation and persistence set .

Now it is more direct ...So the problem is ...if you are approached..I would say you have to worry .

More likely that they do have evidence against you .

newyorkrookie4356
01-10-2011, 01:36 PM
I think we are in the final throes of this hobby the way it is conducted now. Like when we all moved from Dave to Charlie. Most boxes are just paperweights now and what is left is Paid, Private or whatever they are called Servers. even though i hate to admit it Charlie has won this battle,as Dave Did before him. All that is left is little mom and pop private servers. All Charlie may be doing now is mopping up the loose ends. I really find it puzzling that Charlie is asking for the same monetary amount that Dave asked for some eight to ten years ago. Wish my other bills stayed stagnant for that long. Unless something new is in the pipeline i really think all this is small potatoes to Charlie. I am real suspect of the letter that started this thread

Blinky123
01-10-2011, 02:03 PM
Did the courts not stop Dave from doing this to people ?
Why is DN getting away with what Dave couldnt ?

Its bad enough that they use all their own bogus precedents to back themselves up, but now they are going to change something that was already court ordered ?

This might explain that.


The tide turned with the "d*ve" cases, when an attorney who was a friend to several testing sites, got involved. While most settled to avoid public embarrassment , a couple cases went to trial with him representing these individuals for a minimal fee, to act as test cases. They won a ruling, and the other provider ended their extortion attempts. I regret not being able to remember his name at this time, but kudos to him, as it set the stage for the others to ignore those demand letters. This is not exactly the same, as those cases involved purchasing hardware, that could be shown to have other purposes. With IKS sub, there is no doubt as to intention and use. Fook that scum bag echelboob, for taking peeps money, then turning them in. Wouldn't surprise me that the truth will come out that he was in with provider for a long time.

dale carlson
01-10-2011, 02:04 PM
I am real suspect of the letter that started this thread[/QUOTE]

I was thinking the same thing reading through all of this, the guy has been a member since Mar 2003 and has only posted 5 times (3 of which were in this thread).

I am not trying to throw this guy under a bus (he has enough problems if the letter is true)...but I do find it a bit odd.

Dispatcher2117
01-10-2011, 02:10 PM
Don't forget,his thread count can be misleading because old threads are pruned out when the server is cleaned up. I know I have lost thousands of posts over the years.

sodusme
01-10-2011, 02:31 PM
Yeah comparing this to the Dave days doesn't work. Here is an old excerpt from a page dealing with the Directv defense:

Examples of uses for Smart Cards and Smart Card equipment. Now as you can see there are numerous reasons to possess smart cards and smart card equipment. With a paid server that leaves invoices with your payment amount behind coupled with the site owner rolling on your to cover his a$$....its a slam dunk.

Now some folks that get these letters will say "What if I told DN that my wifi got hacked".....or....."What if I did this or did that".....to that I'll quote my boss: "What if my Aunt had balls....than she'd be my Uncle". In other words it doesn't matter. By the time you get a letter you are screwed.


Access Control to computer systems.

Windows 2000 (and XP) have Smart Card Access control built in. Windows 2000 was beta in 1999 and released in January 2000 (OEM) and February 2000 (Retail.)

Linux has PS/SC drivers for all popular Smart Card Readers.

Designing and Testing E-Voting Systems

Security and Pre-Paid Accounts for GSM Phones

Storage of Cryptographic keys (like PGP)

Hard Disk/Network encryption systems

Access control to doors or rooms

ID Cards

Time Cards

Visa/Amex Cards.

Account Balance Readers (Key chain size)

Medical Record Cards

Military Identification and Data Storage Cards.

IT professionals, programmers or anyone else developing or testing Smart Card Systems

Security professionals, designers, and researchers

wrangler
01-10-2011, 02:31 PM
At least the OP doesn't have a bunch of screenshots to add to the evidence. I too have lost thousands of posts and a lot of people just come on here to get a file and never post. To me, that makes you a freeTVer as you never give anything back and only post to get a "step by step" spoon feeding. Nothing lasts forever in this game so it's about time another method is adopted. JMO!

flying4
01-10-2011, 03:19 PM
come on guy`s, if this was legit don`t you think other people would got the same letter? i`am sure dick would not just be picking on one person.. and i`am sure that they were more paper trails.. don`t you think? imo we would be hearing from a lot of people if this was legit... jmo:cool:

wrangler
01-10-2011, 04:40 PM
I said pretty much the same thing but I will stay tuned to this forum for future announcements. Dave sent a lot out at the same time so we shall see. I just don't, and never have, felt that cardsharing was safe. Especially with a paper trail. But that's just me and all are welcome to get as dangerous as they care to.

Blinky123
01-10-2011, 05:21 PM
Typically someone that does not frequent the forums and does not stay informed would be the ones that A$$e$ like DA prey on. Anyone that knew DA and that he stole the code he was using knows that he was only in it for the money and didn't care about his cutomers. He sold his sole for the info of all his customers. So I say this is legit but we will see as more come about.

sodusme
01-10-2011, 05:30 PM
Typically someone that does not frequent the forums and does not stay informed would be the ones that A$$e$ like DA prey on. Anyone that knew DA and that he stole the code he was using knows that he was only in it for the money and didn't care about his cutomers. He sold his sole for the info of all his customers. So I say this is legit but we will see as more come about.

I pulled up this goodie from Justin Tabish's (Dark Angel) court papers posted on another site.


The Defendants John Doe, Jane Doe and other persons unknown (collectively, the "Co-Conspirators") are persons, the identity of whom is unknown to the Plaintiffs but known to the Dark Angel Defendants, who have aided or abetted the Dark Angel Defendants in carrying out their business undertaking and/or unlawfully received or decoded DISH Network Programming obtained through the Dark Angel Defendants , and who have otherwise conspired with the Dark Angel Defendants as set out herein.

I suspect that our buddy here reggie is a 'co-conspirator' as named in the court records. This snippet was on another site and I haven't seen the actual court documents to see how many john/jane does they have named.

hedo2002
01-10-2011, 05:35 PM
come on guy`s, if this was legit don`t you think other people would got the same letter? i`am sure dick would not just be picking on one person.. and i`am sure that they were more paper trails.. don`t you think? imo we would be hearing from a lot of people if this was legit... jmo:cool:

I too have been suspect, BUT the difference between this and the Dave days was Dave got SEVERAL sites all at once then started sending the letters out. In this instance IF it is true is that DN is, (at least at this point), ONLY dealing with those who were using DA's PAY server. I have NO idea how many people he had connected to this server it could have been as little as 10 or the sky is the limit, (depending upon the amount of revenue and the number of seeder cards).


There are docs posted showing DA was indeed busted and warrants obtained. So it is "likely" that this letter is authentic. It could also be that others, (IF they are members here are just too scared to post that they also got a letter). Again DN may be trying to avoid the very thing that happened to Dave's letters, which is to send out too many and be seen by the courts as being on a fishing expedition.

There is a slim chance that this is all a hoax, but given that we know DA has been seized the likelihood of it being real are greater.

1boxman
01-10-2011, 05:54 PM
Very possible it could be a scary tactic . But I would thing if they do have info on any of the people connected to his service... more would have been served right now ..I would think .
More than likely a post at satscams .

But still early in game ...dn has been quite for a bit.

wrangler
01-10-2011, 06:48 PM
It's unlikely that the OP was the only customer on that site so if it's true, I expect we'll see some more posts and then the the usual form letter stating that they were wrong to steal signal and no one should ever try because they will fail.

hedo2002
01-10-2011, 07:48 PM
It's unlikely that the OP was the only customer on that site so if it's true, I expect we'll see some more posts and then the the usual form letter stating that they were wrong to steal signal and no one should ever try because they will fail.

Again DN is NOT going after anyone for merely visiting the site. They are, (if the letter is authentic), going after the end user of a PAY server these are two VERY different things and we NEED to keep the facts straight.

dale carlson
01-10-2011, 09:44 PM
Don't forget,his thread count can be misleading because old threads are pruned out when the server is cleaned up. I know I have lost thousands of posts over the years.

Good point Dispatcher... losing a lot of the old posts for server clean up is probably not a bad thing...you know for all the bad jokes and obsolete computer technology's we discuss here.:D

Not to hijack, but what is a good free HDD scrubber these days (speaking of computer talk) need to do some needed maintenance around here.

sodusme
01-10-2011, 10:09 PM
Good point Dispatcher... losing a lot of the old posts for server clean up is probably not a bad thing...you know for all the bad jokes and obsolete computer technology's we discuss here.:D

Not to hijack, but what is a good free HDD scrubber these days (speaking of computer talk) need to do some needed maintenance around here.

File Shredder 2.0

:cool:

dale carlson
01-11-2011, 12:36 AM
Thank you sir, coming from you this will be treated as gospil.

slickrod
01-11-2011, 12:40 AM
watching this thread closely, i have just read on another site (i know, what the heck am i visiting other sites for when Rookie is all i need) another user posted that he received basically the same letter....so maybe this does have alittle bit of credibility.....i guess time will tell! happy testing and stay safe!

newyorkrookie4356
01-11-2011, 06:10 AM
For argument sake. If these latest crop of letters or letter is legit. Can someone tell me what is magical about the 3500 dollar figure. Is there some kind of legal limit for such claims as these are allowed to be. Contrary to a prior respondent response I do think some comparisions can be made to Dave. Almost ten years ago Dave was requesting 3500 bucks from folks willing to capitulate and pay. Now ten years later Charlie,asking for the exact same monetray amount, is using a similar tactic. Not being a fiscal Guru I can tell you from a bill payers perspective 3500 bucks in 2011 is nothing like 3500 bucks in 2003. Last year in this thread we asked all of rook did they receive or know anyone who received a Dave letter. We also asked what was the outcome said letters. Few folks knew of a cousin of a cousin who paid but the overwhelming concensus was most folks used them for kitty litter. Having just opened my American Express bill and fainting-lol. I find it odd that if a Multi Billion dollar company that have you dead to rights wilh your hand in their till that all they would try to get from you is 3500 bucks. Just maybe if this letter is legit they are throwing out the hook and seeing how many Big Mouth Basses will jump on the hook.

sodusme
01-11-2011, 06:39 AM
That is an interesting amount newyorkrookie....

Since I was the 'respondent' who responded with the no comparison response from earlier (which was actually targeted at the 'hardware' aspect of the suit not the monetary amount)....I'll go ahead and field this one. ;) Although I'm also no 'fiscal Guru'.

This is my thought on the $3500....Ever been to small claims court? I have not....however in searching on google that amount seems to be pretty standard fare for a small claims suit. Now why would they do a small claims suit? Because in most states you can't even have an attorney represent you.....you can consult one but he is not allowed in court....and if you are allowed to have one you will pay for him....not the plaintiff....even if you win. Now I'm no lawyer, I'm no judge, I'm no magistrate, I have no legal training at all but that is about the best reason I can think of.

newyorkrookie4356
01-11-2011, 06:49 AM
Have to pay American Express-lol 3500 bucks is just enough to keep you from hiring a mouthpiece. For they know if you do hire a mouthpiece their case is toast. Any second year law student could clean their clock on this. Maybe in the future the maker of the little blue pill will start suing the porn site for taking away their clients-lol

sodusme
01-11-2011, 07:13 AM
Have to pay American Express-lol 3500 bucks is just enough to keep you from hiring a mouthpiece. For they know if you do hire a mouthpiece their case is toast. Any second year law student could clean their clock on this. Maybe in the future the maker of the little blue pill will start suing the porn site for taking away their clients-lol

The $3500 makes perfect sense now. What better way to win a suit than to keep you from having an attorney? Pretty dirty pool in my book but hey its DN we are talking about. I wonder who appears in court is it J.J.... I bet it is?

:beer2:

hedo2002
01-11-2011, 10:23 AM
Have to pay American Express-lol 3500 bucks is just enough to keep you from hiring a mouthpiece. For they know if you do hire a mouthpiece their case is toast. Any second year law student could clean their clock on this. Maybe in the future the maker of the little blue pill will start suing the porn site for taking away their clients-lol

As has been stated previously Dave was basically on a fishing expedition suing for hardware which had other uses. So I agree any decent lawyer would beat that one.

However Charlie's case is MUCH more SOLID. If the thumbnails posted here are legit then ANY lawyer will have a VERY VERY hard time defending it. They can show, (based on what has been posted), that a specific individual, (Dark Angel), Operated a PAY for access IKS based server, (they WILL have a sworn affidavit from HIM admitting it). Then they have the end users name and other identifiers, (take form Dark Angel's records). Lastly they have a record of the transaction, payment, and subsequent email confirming all this).

The ONLY defense I could think off right off the top, would be, IF the defendant went to trial and showed up WITH documentation, (Police report AND letter from his credit card provider dated BEFORE the letter arrived and after the server was paid for), stating that his credit card had been stolen or his identity compromised. Then he could "argue" that this wasn't him.

But let's all remember this is a CIVIL case meaning the burden of proof for DN is pretty low all they have to do is "show what they are alleging is PROBABLE" they do not need to show proof beyond a reasonable doubt as in Criminal court.

Given what has been posted by the OP I would say he best get that cheque and statement of admission in the mail BEFORE the 30 days expires.

Gibson49
01-11-2011, 01:28 PM
However Charlie's case is MUCH more SOLID.

The ONLY defense I could think off right off the top, would be, IF the defendant went to trial and showed up WITH documentation, (Police report AND letter from his credit card provider dated BEFORE the letter arrived and after the server was paid for), stating that his credit card had been stolen or his identity compromised. Then he could "argue" that this wasn't him.

But let's all remember this is a CIVIL case meaning the burden of proof for DN is pretty low all they have to do is "show what they are alleging is PROBABLE" they do not need to show proof beyond a reasonable doubt as in Criminal court.

Given what has been posted by the OP I would say he best get that cheque and statement of admission in the mail BEFORE the 30 days expires.
That may work, EXCEPT if the server and MOST DO, keep
IP records. YEP the party also connected and USED the
service Case done and a mute point!

newyorkrookie4356
01-11-2011, 05:26 PM
3500 bucks is a grand more than small claims is my town. Most lawyers in my town won't take your case for less than 1500 up front and a pay as you go agreement. I have sit on my civil cases as a juror. I doubt if this would make it to court in seven or eight years. I once sit on a malpractice case that took almost 10 years to get to court. A kid graduating from high school could have his PHD before a 3500 case went to court in New York. i just don't see it as nothing but a fishing expedition if it is true. Sure Charlie has good gobs of cash and plenty of lawyers. Sure he could make examples out of the little fish to scare away other small frys. i just don't see Charlie tying up 800 dollar an hour lawyers to get 3500 bucks from the local janitor who happens to own a hot box. Most jurisdictions make the loser pay the court cost. It just doesn't jibe to me.

Constable Odo
01-11-2011, 05:36 PM
There's value to the providers doing this. Lets say they send out 100 letters to DA customers. Lets say 100,000 people on the forums see or hear about them.

No willing customers=No private servers.

newyorkrookie4356
01-11-2011, 05:57 PM
If he should decide to pursue further in civil court. Telling you from the start that he puts a value of 3500 dollars on the services that he claims you stole from him. If you tell him go fly a kite and charlie takes you to court. Short of having you pay the court cost if you lose. All he can expect to get in civil court is 3500 bucks. Money for pain and suffering is not in the equation. Punitve damages are the damages you try to get to make the other guy stop doing what he is doing. Even if you lost i doubt highly if they could get much in punitive cash. just doesn't jibe to me. I have to agree with constable. Its l.ike getting in a bar fight -you always deck the biggest guy first-with the hope that will put the fear in the heart of everybody else

nvflash
01-11-2011, 08:00 PM
Just out of curiosity, what could they do if he had a legit sub? How could they prove that his sat dish isn't picking up just their subbed channels?

Dispatcher2117
01-11-2011, 08:16 PM
1st. the papers are just about not readable so we don't know what site DN got the info from.

2nd. We don't know if it was a site like Rookie, or was it a Private Server that has been taken over.

3rd. If it was a PS then he would have no other reason to be on that IP other than to steal and decrypt DNs programing.

Until the OP comes back and answers several questions then all we are doing is taking shots in the dark. Personally, I'm going with the PS scenario.

sodusme
01-11-2011, 08:33 PM
Well the one form has an email of orders(at)regnow.com I'm not familiar with that site but it looks like they host software for you. The site says if you're a software developer you can sell your software on their site. It looks like this Dark Angel was offering his 'pirate IKS' software for sale on their site. Probably not the brightest thing to do....

olympusom
01-11-2011, 08:35 PM
hhhmmm might as well place an ad in the evening newspaper

Sp0iler
01-11-2011, 09:11 PM
I think its important to note that this business was located in Canada as indicated by the email addys and not what I would consider "offshore" by any means.
I think those connected to servers in Europe and other countries are probably a bit safer. (Could be a false since of security but it works for me )
I think the letter is legit and I think DN has a better than winnable case in this circumstance as presented so far.The paper trail is just to strong.
I think the OP's knowledge of the game was limited and he didn't do enough homework and will now pay the price for that mistake.
My experience with Dave and his letters goes like this....
I guy I know had bought from a site here in the US and got one of Daves $3500.00 letters.I put him in touch with an attorney friend who wrote a response letter to Dave.With that.. the guy had to return to Dave the equipment he bought and payed $250.00 and promised not to do it again.The letter the attorney wrote also cost $250.00.
That was that.... .
This is different and the OP really has no defense to the paper trail
Now... the Name Dark Angel rings a strong b e l l (sites spell check thinks thats a different word) with me from about 2 years ago.I don't recall what it was I learned at that time but I knew to avoid anything with that name.Later I saw the same name at that other site (SS).
And here we are...
I bet we see at least a few more of these same type of letters from others that we're on the same server that the provider can trace back far enough.
It's all about the paper trail and who has a right to get to it..

JMO thanks,
Sp0iler

newyorkrookie4356
01-11-2011, 09:39 PM
since the days before digital cable.way i figure is like I would be perplexed if i got a letter. After the perplexed feeling passed i wouldn't think it was the end o the world. Really no one wants a 3500 nut hanging over his head but if it was there i would have to deal with it. If you count all the UFC's, Pro Events i have seen over the years and the simple enjoyemeant of whacking Dave ,charlie and cable. I am not going go lay down on the train tracks over a letter asking me for 3500 clams. I have gotten way more from this thing we do than that. Really i am presently more worried that unless something radical happens and happens soon. I think we are at the end of the road for this hobby.

olympusom
01-11-2011, 09:47 PM
not the end of the road, just a few turns but we're not forked yet:)

sodusme
01-11-2011, 09:49 PM
Lets put a face with the name shall we?.....

I'm betting this is the chap from Sechelt, British Columbia, Canada Since he was brought into court in the Supreme Court of British Columbia as listed in his court docs.

Not a very popular name either btw. :2guns:

socal
01-11-2011, 09:59 PM
thought some members might want to see a Dave letter and compare it to Charlie's...BTW no action was taken...Dave never followed up with another extortion letter...Dave was trying to bust my friend for ordering a card reader...geez...it is not illegal to own a card reader...lol...his problem was that he ordered the card reader from a busted website with cc...

hedo2002
01-11-2011, 09:59 PM
There's value to the providers doing this. Lets say they send out 100 letters to DA customers. Lets say 100,000 people on the forums see or hear about them.

No willing customers=No private servers.

the LAST sentence in this quote is where the BIG Difference is. We here at DSSRookie have been trying, (in vain), to educate people on this.

The BIG difference is this was NOT a PRIVATE server, it was a PAY server.

A PRIVATE server is one that YOU setup for use within your OWN home, Yes admittedly "some" people will share that server with a few family members or friends. We permit discussion of this type of server here at DSSRookie as it is a "fairly safe" operation. (In comparison to other methods).

A PAY server is one like this Dark Angel, and others who TRY to fool and MISLEAD people by using the term PRIVATE server in their name. This is a COMMERCIAL venture in which you pay someone, (who may or may not fall into bed with Charlie at some point), that you do NOT know for access to the server and the channels provided on that server.

There are MANY of these operations running. Problem is just like Dark Angel when Charlie shows up YOUR info is turned over to save THEIR butts. We do NOT permit discussion of this type of server here at DSSRookie. IMHO it is STUPID to place your info into the hands of someone who is a THIEF and has NO connection to you and WILL turn you in at the first opportunity. I personally oppose these types of servers as in the end just like Dark Angel I firmly believe Charlie WILL get to them and YOU WILL PAY, (and it won't be to view STOLEN channels).

But as I have always advocated, the end user should look at the facts, (now that we have seen ONE of these servers busted there WILL be others), consider the benefits of joining a PAY server, then consider the consequences. Then make an EDUCATED decision if the risk is acceptable to you and your family, in order to receive the stolen signals. Also consider as another possible risk the possibility of simply getting ripped off. Thankfully this hasn't yet become wide spread but if you pay for say a year in advance there is NO guarantee they will be there. How many times have we seen sites offering "lifetime support" for a fee and then closing up once the money is all in? So consider ALL the options and then GET a SUB and save the hassle and the potential consequences, UNLESS those consequences are acceptable to you.

sodusme
01-11-2011, 10:37 PM
Good post Hedo. Thats exactly the reason I won't involve myself in IKS. I would do it don't get me wrong....IF I was running things and had full control over my OWN anonymity. But to trust my hyde with some bum I don't even know....not a chance! If I get in hot water with the provider I want it to be something I did and not because someone else rolled on me to save their butt.

1919a6
01-12-2011, 12:22 AM
not the end of the road, just a few turns but we're not forked yet:)


LOL, you said 'forked'.:thumbup:

newyorkrookie4356
01-12-2011, 05:11 AM
If I am wrong let me know. When we were using HU cards and loaders there were folks who bought loaders with their credit cards and had the loader sent to their homes. Some of those guys got letters if the supplier got busted and turned over his client list. 95 % of the folks who got letters never paid. I shall repeat this until the cows come in 3500 bucks in civil court is like a fly on a elephants butt. Whether its paid or private or the NYR free TV server-lol should we not remember the old street saying- " Don't Do the Crime if You Can't do the Time". Meaning if you wanted safe -Get a Sub!!! if you are the type of person who would sit at a red light in the desert until it turned green maybe you should select a hobby like Ship Building. Folks have predicted the dire consequences of using IKS for years. In the end the big provider IKS has come and gone. And none of the predictions have come true as far as the end users are concerned. So if a judgement for 3500 bucks,for which none would like,is going drain juniors college fund maybe one should really think about a Sub or Rabbit Ears.

sodusme
01-12-2011, 06:42 AM
If I am wrong let me know. When we were using HU cards and loaders there were folks who bought loaders with their credit cards and had the loader sent to their homes. Some of those guys got letters if the supplier got busted and turned over his client list. 95 % of the folks who got letters never paid. I shall repeat this until the cows come in 3500 bucks in civil court is like a fly on a elephants butt. Whether its paid or private or the NYR free TV server-lol should we not remember the old street saying- " Don't Do the Crime if You Can't do the Time". Meaning if you wanted safe -Get a Sub!!! if you are the type of person who would sit at a red light in the desert until it turned green maybe you should select a hobby like Ship Building. Folks have predicted the dire consequences of using IKS for years. In the end the big provider IKS has come and gone. And none of the predictions have come true as far as the end users are concerned. So if a judgement for 3500 bucks,for which none would like,is going drain juniors college fund maybe one should really think about a Sub or Rabbit Ears.

I knew a guy that bought a peripheral with his wifes credit card and got pinched for buying it after the dealer went belly up. This same guy went to his attorney and said "Man I screwed up just make this go away". The attorney appeared in court for him and filed all the necessary paper work needed but in the long run it actually cost him some $9000.

The only thing I see that is flawed with that analogy is in the desert there is not likely to be a cop waiting there for you to run the red light. Its relatively safe to run that red light. Of course you pick and choose whether you do it. There is also not someone else driving the car that will leave the scene and blame it on you. Its a 'calculated' risk. Now with IKS too many of us and this isn't to brag but too many of us myself included know how easily it is to catch someone running IKS. Now of course you will ask "If its so easy why have they just began the process". To that I will say: I predicted months if not a year or so ago that all it would take is for somebody (one person) to be running one of these servers that didn't quite know what the hell they were doing and BAM your butt was in a sling. Thats all it takes is for one persons slip up and you're done. This guy was offering his software for download on a legitimate website for Chr!sts sake like you were shopping at Wal-Mart. He had a myspace and a resume posted on another site. I've done a little reading on his name and if the information I found fits him this guy was good....DAMN good at programming. In fact I'm almost certain its him as the profile is from British Columbia where Dark Angel was served papers. His resume' read like a who's who of programming. This guy knew PHP, MYSQL, MS-SQL, VB, .NET, C# and he was a computer technician among other things....this should of NEVER happened. This guy was brilliant with computer language and programming. But he either got sloppy OR somewhere down the line there was a bulls eye put on him. Now that tells me one who has not even a miniscule amount of his talent that if he can get caught doing this so could I....or anyone else for that matter.

I can appreciate your stance on this NYR but I have a different take on it. Many of the members here know what I do outside the FTA community and that I don't exactly stay 'inside' the boundaries of internet law. However its all a calculated risk with me not to mention I been doing it for a very long time. Every thing I do in regards to the activities that I enjoy is covered by some sort of anonymity which I personally am responsible for. I refuse to let someone else be responsible for my 'safety' on the internet.

newyorkrookie4356
01-12-2011, 09:33 AM
If we all thought the same the world would be so dull and gray. To be contiued -must leave to move about 18 inches of the white stuff.

hedo2002
01-12-2011, 09:58 AM
Your right NY NO ONE has ever been "thrown in jail" for running IKS nor will there ever be anyone. That is because your looking at apples and oranges. These letters, and eventually court cases, (I firmly believe Charlie WILL follow thru on these letters as I will explain later), are CIVIL proceedings. There are NO jail terms handed out for CIVIL proceedings UNLESS one of the parties is found to be in contempt of court. So NO jail time will ever be forth coming.

Now people KEEP comparing this to the Dave letters and saying just ignore it like we did with Dave.

Again the Dave letters were a apples these letters are oranges. Dave had NO grounds for the letters as the equipment people bought had MANY varied uses other than to program their cards to steal Dave's signals.

In this case connecting to an IKS server there is NO OTHER legitimate use for this other than to steal Charlie's signals. Given that there is, (at least in the letter posted), a CLEAR paper trail back to the end user, ignoring this letter will simply NOT work.

From the evidence provided thus far, (and I am sure Charlie has more), like logged IP's, logged user names and passwords etc). They have a VERY strong case. This end user is done, if he doesn't do as requested within the 30 days, I am SURE Charlie will proceed they ARE GOING to make a point of someone and it seems this is the beginning. If the case goes to trial they are NOT limited to the $3500, (that was merely a "settlement offer" proposed BEFORE a suit was filed. There is NOTHING preventing them when they file suit to make it say $1 Million with "punitive damages of say $25 Million.

Also someone made mention of $800/hr lawyers for Charlie. Theses cases will be handled by STAFF attorney's who are already on retainer and I can assure you they are no where near $800/hr. Besides IF Charlie files a suit they can also claim legal fees as part of their "damages". So in the end it will not cost them anything to take it to trial.

So again these letters are NOTHING like the Dave letters and it is fool hardy to advise people getting them to simply ignore them. It is NOT our money or OUR lifestyle on the line. the LEAST I would advise is to contact an attorney right away and get a proper LEGAL opinion of your options. Otherwise this could end up costing a LOT more than $3500 or even the $9,000 spoken of earlier.

Charlie has a habit of obtaining outrageous judgments against IKS seeders etc in the past.

1boxman
01-12-2011, 01:36 PM
When someone refers to the Dav letter is just that ..All ways good to reflect on the pass as where we can learn .

And the game as changed as to dn has learned .

So as pointed ... these letter are different... to where narga has learned from the dav days .

Any letters sent ...and if they are legit ....will ..am shur have evidence...not just speculations .

They connecting the dots...So having any ties to these paid severs are not a good idea at all .

Gates07
01-12-2011, 03:27 PM
The Fed Court in Florida told Dave to quit doing what there doing, it amounted to strong arm robbery, that why they quit. over
Some months back someone posted at some site, i do not remember where an attorney's web site that represents DN/DTV clients (Piratecardblues) in case you needed help, i never went there, just kept the information

sodusme
01-12-2011, 04:33 PM
The Fed Court in Florida told Dave to quit doing what there doing, it amounted to strong arm robbery, that why they quit. over
Some months back someone posted at some site, i do not remember where an attorney's web site that represents DN/DTV clients (Piratecardblues) in case you needed help, i never went there, just kept the information

Hey that is GREAT information buddy. This should be posted in a sticky somewhere in my opinion. I'm bookmarking it right now.

One curious thing he says on his website:


As to Echostar (Dish Network), their anti-signal theft initiatives had, until recently, primarily taken two forms: prosecution of both sellers and resellers of devices and prosecution of end users who have submitted or returned unlawfully modified receivers to Echostar. Recently, however, they are doing electronic monitoring in order to detect unlawful IKS server activity.

Not to thread jack but how are they 'electronically monitoring' anything? And what are they monitoring? Thats a bit scary....:scared:

Reggie? I would recommend you call this man he says on his site that he helps anyone anywhere in the U.S.

hedo2002
01-12-2011, 05:04 PM
Hey that is GREAT information buddy. This should be posted in a sticky somewhere in my opinion. I'm bookmarking it right now.

One curious thing he says on his website:



Not to thread jack but how are they 'electronically monitoring' anything? And what are they monitoring? Thats a bit scary....:scared:

Reggie? I would recommend you call this man he says on his site that he helps anyone anywhere in the U.S.

Most likely the "monitoring" involves software they have developed to monitor loads on cards and therefore to identify which cards are being used as seeders. I don't see their monitoring as scary, any more than I am scared by a store which has the electronic theft detectors at their doors that sound if someone tries to leave with a stolen/tagged item. Or have security cameras. It is after all their property and they have the right to try to protect it using legal means. Again this person didn't buy any equipment as people did in the Dave days they bought access to a server with only ONE purpose. To STEAL dn's signals. I don't see on the website where they profess to be able to "protect" you from this type of activity.

If I were connected to one of these PAY servers I would TODAY cancel ANY further payments, and remove myself from their service, (TODAY), and contact them BY PHONE and request they delete ANY/ALL personal info from their databases INCLUDING payments credit cards, and IP logs, (although I doubt they will do the IP removal).

sodusme
01-12-2011, 06:10 PM
Yeah I see what you mean....I was taking the fact that he said
Recently, however, they are doing electronic monitoring in order to detect unlawful IKS server activity. I took that as he was offering a defense for it....but now that I read it again he specifically uses the wording 'unlawful' as if to say he can't/won't defend against that or doesn't think he can?

1919a6
01-13-2011, 12:00 AM
Iif you are the type of person who would sit at a red light in the desert until it turned green maybe you should select a hobby like Ship Building.

Hey! That's me!:favor49

FireHydrant
01-13-2011, 12:11 AM
The Fed Court in Florida told Dave to quit doing what there doing, it amounted to strong arm robbery, that why they quit. over
Some months back someone posted at some site, i do not remember where an attorney's web site that represents DN/DTV clients (Piratecardblues) in case you needed help, i never went there, just kept the information

Please show some proof of this. Many of us have looked for quite a while for information regarding this to find nothing. Just a silly rumor to give people false hope.

You can go to DirecTv's site HackHu, and see that end users were still being pursued in 2007.

Gibson49
01-13-2011, 12:13 AM
Hey! That's me!:favor49

LOL... Yea me to..
A friend of mine got a ticket out in the desert... for doing just that. She was in the high desert and didn't stop at the
only stop sign for miles and miles and was speeding 70.
A Cop was on a dirt road about 1 block from the paved intersection and then got her....Like where was he...
He actually bragged about being so hidden!:censored:

1boxman
01-13-2011, 03:22 PM
The Fed Court in Florida told Dave to quit doing what there doing, it amounted to strong arm robbery, that why they quit. over
Some months back someone posted at some site, i do not remember where an attorney's web site that represents DN/DTV clients (Piratecardblues) in case you needed help, i never went there, just kept the information

Here was one ..towards dav ..

They didn't really stop them...just made them prove and give evidence against the end user ...as innocent people where getting the letters too .


EFF: Court Rules DirecTV Must Prove More Than Possession

Electronic Frontier Foundation Media Release

For Immediate Release: Tuesday, June 15, 2004

Contact:

Jason Schultz
Staff Attorney
Electronic Frontier Foundation
]jason @eff.org
+1 415 436-9333 x112

Albert A. Zakarian, Esquire
zakarian@ tampabay.rr.com
+1 813 251-2200


Court Rules DirecTV Must Prove More than Possession

Based on arguments made by civil liberties group the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) and attorney Albert Zakarian for defendant Mike Treworgy, the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals today ruled that DirecTV cannot sue individuals for "mere possession" of technology that is capable of intercepting DirecTV's satellite signal. "We're glad to see the court apply common sense to this issue," said EFF Staff Attorney Jason Schultz. "Merely possessing a device doesn't harm anyone and shouldn't give a company like DirecTV the right to drag you into court without proof that you're actually stealing something from them."

EFF filed an amicus brief in the appeal and maintains further information about the DirecTV legal campaign on the DirecTV Defense website. Defendant Treworgy was represented by Florida attorney Albert Zakarian.

1boxman
01-13-2011, 03:33 PM
This was another one .


DirecTV to Narrow Anti-Piracy Campaign

Electronic Frontier Foundation Media Release

For Immediate Release: Monday, June 14, 2004

Contact:

Jennifer Granick
Clinical Director
Stanford Law School Center for Internet and Society
jennifer @granick.com
+1 650 724-0014

Jason Schultz
Staff Attorney
Electronic Frontier Foundation
jason @eff.org
+1 415 436-9333 x112

DirecTV to Narrow Anti-Piracy Campaign

Satellite TV Giant Will No Longer Prosecute Users for Mere Possession

San Francisco, CA and Palo Alto, CA - After discussions with the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) and the Center for Internet and Society (CIS) Cyberlaw Clinic, satellite television giant DirecTV has agreed to modify its nationwide campaign against signal piracy in order to reduce threats and lawsuits against innocent users of smart card technology. Chief among these changes is a promise to no longer sue or threaten to sue people merely for possessing smart card devices.

"American innovators and hobbyists shouldn't have to fear legal action merely for possessing new technologies that have many legitimate uses," said EFF Staff Attorney Jason Schultz. "We're also pleased that DirecTV has agreed to stop targeting general purpose devices in its campaign and will investigate all substantive claims of innocence."

Over the past few years, DirecTV has orchestrated a nationwide legal campaign against hundreds of thousands of individuals, claiming that they were illegally intercepting its satellite TV signal. The company began its crusade by raiding smart card device distributors to obtain their customer lists, then sent over 170,000 demand letters to customers and eventually filed more than 24,000 federal lawsuits against them. Because DirecTV made little effort to distinguish legal uses of smart card technology from illegal ones, EFF and the CIS Cyberlaw Clinic received hundreds of calls and emails from panicked device purchasers.

In August 2003, EFF and CIS created the DirecTV Defense website to provide innocent users and their lawyers with the information necessary to defend themselves. The organizations also began a series of discussions with DirecTV about ways to reform its anti-piracy tactics and protect innocent consumers.

As a result, DirecTV has agreed to make several changes to its campaign. The company will no longer pursue people solely for purchasing smart card readers, writers, general-purpose programmers, and general-purpose emulators. It will maintain this policy into the forseeable future and file lawsuits only against people it suspects of actually pirating its satellite signal. DirecTV will, however, continue to investigate purchasers of devices that are often primarily designed for satellite signal interception, nicknamed "bootloaders" and "unloopers."

DirecTV also agreed to change its pre-lawsuit demand letters to explain in detail how innocent recipients can get DirecTV to drop their cases. The company also promised that it will investigate every substantive claim of innocence it receives. If purchasers provide sufficient evidence demonstrating that they did not use their devices for signal theft, DirecTV will dismiss their cases. EFF and CIS will monitor reports of this process to confirm that innocent device purchasers are having their cases dismissed.

"While EFF still disagrees with DirecTV over other aspects of its campaign, we're pleased that we could find mutual ground on these issues," said CIS Executive Director Jennifer Granick, who represented EFF in the negotiations. "We hope to continue working with DirecTV to resolve the remaining disputes so that everyone can enjoy the benefits of smart card technology."

Smart card readers and their various derivatives have many legitimate uses, including computer security and scientific research.

Jrags
01-13-2011, 04:24 PM
The question becomes: did the OP actually receive a pirated signal, i.e. control words? If he paid for the service but did not "get it to work" as he claims, is he still liable based on the DTV docs above? Instead, the OP could argue that the pirate site defrauded him, because he could never get the subscription to work.

I think the evidence shows "intent" but not commission of piracy. However, if there are historic server logs showing he was using the pirate server for any significant time, then they have a case. (BTW, most server logs are purged daily.)

Just IMHO.

aid
01-13-2011, 05:24 PM
The question becomes: did the OP actually receive a pirated signal, i.e. control words? If he paid for the service but did not "get it to work" as he claims, is he still liable based on the DTV docs above? Instead, the OP could argue that the pirate site defrauded him, because he could never get the subscription to work.

I think the evidence shows "intent" but not commission of piracy. However, if there are historic server logs showing he was using the pirate server for any significant time, then they have a case. (BTW, most server logs are purged daily.)

Just IMHO.

You have a point if he never got it to work..but there was still the intent to steal.

sodusme
01-13-2011, 06:36 PM
The question becomes: did the OP actually receive a pirated signal, i.e. control words? If he paid for the service but did not "get it to work" as he claims, is he still liable based on the DTV docs above? Instead, the OP could argue that the pirate site defrauded him, because he could never get the subscription to work.

I think the evidence shows "intent" but not commission of piracy. However, if there are historic server logs showing he was using the pirate server for any significant time, then they have a case. (BTW, most server logs are purged daily.)

Just IMHO.

Yeah thats a good point....

I wondered about his "I never could get work" statement and thought what does he mean by this? If he never got it to work he might have a leg to stand on IF and thats a big if....if they didn't seize any server records that would have his i.p. on them.

I'll add this little story where I actually used this defense to fight a DMCA notice I got for pirating software. I got a copy of Email Tracker Pro and a 'code' to unlock the trial version. The code didn't work in fact it was for a different version than what I had downloaded. I got sloppy and failed to run a proxy when I tried to insert the code. The damn program dialed 'home' and they notified my ISP that I was 'pirating' their program. I was sent a DMCA notice where they told me the 'code' I used was not only for a different version of their software but was also 'blacklisted'. I returned fire with this...."Upon your own admission the code I used was for a different version of Email Tracker Pro and blacklisted. Therefore the code did not work....thus I was not granted access to any features that I did not already have access to under the FREE 'trial' version"...."Have a good day". I received an apology letter from the company saying they were withdrawing the DMCA notice.

I would consult an attorney but maybe word something this way...."I was never able to get the 'fire-n-ice' software to work and was defrauded by Mr. Dark Angel of the monies I remitted....therefore I was never granted access to any channels that were not already available free of charge through your dish system"...."Have a good F'ing day"....ROFLMAO

hedo2002
01-13-2011, 09:45 PM
That defense would not work in a CIVIL trial, ALL DN has to show is the "probability of evidence is in their favor" and the defendants claim would he never got it to work would not suffice.

Secondly he couldn't "claim" the server op "defrauded him" the server op likely provided the correct info and the end user wasn't capable enough to get it to work does not constitute fraud. By the mere action, (and apparent proof obtained by DN), that the end user had submitted full payment in order to receive the pirated signals shows clear intent to STEAL DN signals. Think of it in terms of criminal law (JUST for a layman's explanation). If you go into a bank with a note asking the telling to give you all her money and she refuses, you can't just walk out and say "HEY I didn't actually STEAL anything." The intent is there and you would be charged), of course in CRIMINAL court the burden of proof is MUCH higher so in CIVIL court DN would likely prevail

Lastly, consider in this, or another example someone pulls a gun points it at you but is unaware the gun has a safety and they can't get the gun to discharge. Based merely on the fact of user error they don't just walk away from it they would be charged with ATTEMPTED murder. Now YOU could also sue them for "trying to kill you" and the emotional damages etc. They couldn't claim that whoever sold them the gun didn't adequately show them how to use it. Therefore, the gun manufacturer "defrauded" them and the civil case should be dismissed.

sodusme
01-13-2011, 10:32 PM
Very good points Hedo....but allow me to play devils advocate here for a minute.

While the analogies are good ones one thing differs where signal theft is concerned. There is no 'attempted' signal theft charge on the books that I'm aware of. Just handing a letter to a bank teller that hints that you want cash is attempted robbery. Pointing a gun at someone and not getting the safety off could be attempted murder (you'd have to show that you intended to murder the person I believe) or at a minimum 'brandishing a firearm in public' (I had a friend that was actually brought up on those charges).

Having all the necessary receivers, dish, diseqc switches, lnbs and even the necessary software does not mean that an actual crime took place. Lets not forget the 'crime' here is the actual 'signal theft'....not the 'attempted' signal theft of DN's signal.

Being a civil matter DN has to prove 51%....thats it. On the other hand if you can prove 51% than you are declared victorious. I agree it would be an uphill battle but might be the best thing the O.P has going for him. Of course you can also request a jury trial. Which you'd be a fool to not do. At least that way you have 12 people to decide....instead of one crooked judge.

Thats why I got the company to drop my DMCA notice....there is no such thing as 'attempted' piracy or copyright infringement as they specifically called it in their letter. Either you committed the act or you didn't. They could not prove that I had access at any point to features in their program that I did not already have available to me under the FREE version. In fact to the contrary they stated there was no way that code would work. I'm not saying that this defense would work 100% in this case but anything is worth a try....

newyorkrookie4356
01-14-2011, 05:31 AM
But-lol
Since my coffee is still brewing and i have a few moments for debate.

I work for a mutl billion dollar corporation that has a huge legal department. over the thirty years i have worked there on numerous occasions i have had to go to court or lawyers offices on behalf of my company. For we are always being sued or suing someone. On none of these occasions were any of our in house lawyers involved. Most big corporations outsource this kind of work. The cases i was involved in ran the gamut from a few hundred thousand to over ten million bucks. I really doubt if a fortune 500 company is going to tie up a staff lawyer pursuing a deadbeat like me for 3500 bucks. On the 3500 bucks issue. I know not what goes on anywhere else but i do know where i live if you send me a bill for 3500 bucks for whatever. I ignore you or tell you to go jump in a lake. You get pissed because i didn't let you extort me and you take me to court. You cannot up the ante to suing me for whatever amount that just pops into your head. You can't tell the court now that i have pissed you off by using your letter for kitty litter that now to get even you want me to pay 100,000. Courts where i live don't work like that. Maybe thats why most folks who didn't pay Dave didn't have to go underground for fear of being served. In my city no jury is goning to rule against the little guy,me, to give the big bad corporation,Charlie,my 3500 bucks. Six of my neighbors is going to rule for Charlie after opening their monthly providers bill. Ain't gonna happen. Dave and Charlie knows that unless you are a big shot making boxes, selling code or helping other folks steal their services that in civil court they ain't gonna prevail. They throw out the hook,the letter, and see who will bite. I think when Dave went down for us it was about a year before we started whacking charlie. I fear if something doesn't jump off soon we will grow weary of playing would be lawyers and start practicing medicine-lol

kutter
01-14-2011, 05:53 AM
"Attempt" can be applied to any law that's already on the books ...

however, in a civil suit charlie would be awarded nothing because no loss of revenue or damages could be shown ... so they would simply hand the case over to the authorities and have you charged criminally ... :)

newyorkrookie4356
01-14-2011, 06:45 AM
"Attempt" can be applied to any law that's already on the books ...

however, in a civil suit charlie would be awarded nothing because no loss of revenue or damages could be shown ... so they would simply hand the case over to the authorities and have you charged criminally ... :)

What is your case law on that. -I had tenant owing me 12000 bucks in 1999 -exhausted every avenue know to man to get my cash. in the year of 2011 they still owe me 12 grand. If what you say was true the credit card companies would have the criminal courts jammed until the end of time. Please tell me what state i need to move to that would let me send that sucker who owes me 12 large to the rock pile-lol Sure could use my cash with the price of gas up to $ 3:36 a gallon

kutter
01-14-2011, 06:52 AM
if a crime is committed you have every right to press criminal charges ... ask your staff lawyers :)

no lawyer in his right mind would allow you to confess to a criminal charge, to win a civil case, unless the civil suit was going to cost you more than the criminal one that would ensue ...

sodusme
01-14-2011, 08:59 AM
if a crime is committed you have every right to press criminal charges ... ask your staff lawyers :)

no lawyer in his right mind would allow you to confess to a criminal charge, to win a civil case, unless the civil suit was going to cost you more than the criminal one that would ensue ...

Source:
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html#506

(a) Criminal Infringement. —

(1) In general. — Any person who willfully infringes a copyright shall be punished as provided under section 2319 of title 18, if the infringement was committed —

(A) for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain;

(B) by the reproduction or distribution, including by electronic means, during any 180-day period, of 1 or more copies or phonorecords of 1 or more copyrighted works, which have a total retail value of more than $1,000; or

(C) by the distribution of a work being prepared for commercial distribution, by making it available on a computer network accessible to members of the public, if such person knew or should have known that the work was intended for commercial distribution.

The Intellectual Property Protection Act of 2006/2007 would of made copyright infringement a 'criminal' act punishable by more jail time....except if it hadn't stalled out in the senate. Also as of date there is NO 'attempted' copyright infringement crime on the books.

Source:
http://boingboing.net/2008/09/24/judge-says-that-atte.html

Judge says that "attempted copyright infringement" is bogus.

Source:
http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/01/eff-files-brief-atlantic-v-howell-resisting-riaas-attempted-distribution-theory

the record labels argue that simply having a song in a shared folder, even if no one ever downloaded it from you (i.e., "making available"), infringes the distribution right. This essentially amounts to suing someone for attempted distribution, something the Copyright Act has never recognized

Yeah so in short there IS a criminal copyright infringement clause HOWEVER you have to meet certain criteria which the O.P. does not. You also cannot be sued for 'attempted' copyright infringement. SO your best bet Reggie is deny, deny, deny my friend. I'm not big on IKS but I also don't like to see our fellow 'brothers' get pinched for something so yeah let them prove with a preponderance of the evidence that you DID in fact receive their programming illegally. You may have to do some more digging and see if you actually got caught hooking up to a server or not. I fully believe without that evidence you may get lucky.

Good luck.

hedo2002
01-14-2011, 09:34 AM
I understand what your all saying. I never said there was such a thing as "attempted" signal theft. I was using the CRIMINAL cases to point out that simply "failing" to complete an "attempted" act does NOT mean that the "offence" magically disappears.

In this case, (which as I have pointed out several times is CIVIL the "burden of Proof is considerably lower" They don't even have to reach "51%" ALL they have to do is convince the judge, (FYI there are NO Jury trials in SMALL CLAIMS court). They don't have to PROVE you actually completed the infraction, all they have to prove is that you intended to "injure their business". Given that this person has completed the "order, and payed in full" for the intended Signal theft" will in MOST cases convince the judge of your "intent to damage DN" DN does NOT have to prove he ACTUALLY connected to the server merely that he paid for "access" they could say his ineptness, doesn't preclude their claim.

As for upping the amount, They COULD NOT increase the amount once a claim has been filed. However, in this case the lawyers letter C:EARLY states that SUIT MAY BE COMMENCED without further notice". This means DN has NOT filed claim in court and although they have made an "Offer to settle" they are NOT bound by the figure UNTIL a suit has been filed with the court. It has NOTHING to do with getting "pissed off" If anything this would likely work IN DN's favor. IF the case goes to court they can point out to the judge that they offered a MUCH lower settlement offer in an attempt to "save the courts time" but the defendant refused their offer.

If DN files a suit for say $5,000 THEN they can NOT increase that amount, (without showing why this is required). They "could" for example if they discovered AFTER filing that the defendant was actually a "seeder" of that server and not "just a client" then they could "AMEND" their damage claims.

As for damages, DN is NOT required to show "Actual" damages, all they need do is demonstrate that by STEALING their signal the defendant "damaged" their business. Which is NOT limited to just, ("actual out of pocket damages"), presuming that if he weren't stealing their signal they would have sold him a sub. But they can "claim" that had users NOT participated in wide spread signal theft, then they wouldn't have had to "spend MILLIONS on anti piracy security measures", therefore asking the court to consider THOSE as their damages. As we have seen in the "seeder cases" the courts have a tendency to "accept this argument"

When I filed my last small claims court, (generally in this jurisdiction you go to a "Pre court settlement conference"). This is conducted by a judge, (not the one who will hear the case if it goes to court). The mediator listens to both sides and weighs if it is a case which SHOULD go to court. In my case after hearing my evidence the mediator turned to the other party and "suggested" they settle right now. He stated that IF it were to go to court I should amend my claim to ask for more damages including ALL court costs, time off work etc. He "suggested my claim, ($3000), Could end up in a "legitimate" court ordered judgment of in excess of $5,000. They other party said they WOULD NOT settle. Three days later I had a CERTIFIED cheque for the amount discussed in the settlement conference.

Also, IF DN files suit and the OP continues to just "ignore" it and doesn't appear, (at least in my jurisdiction), the court WILL enter a judgment, in the FULL amount to DN. So I would HIGHLY recommend this person NOT ignore it and do as I have suggested several times, SEEK LEGAL advice.

hedo2002
01-14-2011, 09:43 AM
Let's also remember the letter mentions NOTHING about copyright infringement. They may actually claim it was an outright THEFT or they could also be claiming on the basis that by Buying access to an IKS server which ONLY HAS ONE purpose, (to permit the reception of their signal without the LEGAL compensation), he was in fact "defrauding them" of their rightful revenue.

We will not know what the actual claim is unless a suit is filed.

newyorkrookie4356
01-14-2011, 09:47 AM
if a crime is committed you have every right to press criminal charges ... ask your staff lawyers :)

no lawyer in his right mind would allow you to confess to a criminal charge, to win a civil case, unless the civil suit was going to cost you more than the criminal one that would ensue ...

You used your card to acquire goods and Service from someone. Your card issuer paid for those goods only on the promise of you paying him back. I believe if they wanted to pursue this in any state in the union they could charge you criminally. The watch word is Could. They could do alot of things but in the real world they don't. I know folks who owe credit card bills in the ionisphere. So for the sake of argument lets say Charlie wants to come after the end user criminally. Lets say you are a person with the worse luck in the world. Lets say in all of New York County(Manhatten) you are the only stiff caught by the Cable Cops. Before the cable cops can send New Yorks Finest to lock you up and send you to the Tombs to await arraignment they first must get a warrant for your arrest. I am willing to bet you my pension on that one. They would more than likely lock up Charlies lawyer and send him to Bellevue.

So lets say they go Civil. Small claims in my county is 2500 bucks meaning anything over that amount has to go before a court. Best bet for a civil case with no major drawbacks might get to court in 24 to 26 months. Any good ambulance chaser can stretch that to four five years. maybe Charlie can do alot but in the end it just easier for him to throw out the hook and see who will bite. Really i never said i had a staff lawyer and my hope is the conversation doesn't get to that level.

hedo2002
01-14-2011, 09:49 AM
The OP also SEVERELY damaged his defense, by posting the info he has. (DN will NO doubt take a screenshot of his post). In his post he admits the WAS A client of Dark Angel and that he did indeed ATTEMPT to connect but could not get it operational. This proves DN's claim that he was a client and was trying to STEAL their signal, but failed due to his ineptness. Not because the system didn't exist or that he was NEVER a client, and never paid for access to the server. He has admitted to all of these elements which IMHO supports DN's position and claim.

sodusme
01-14-2011, 10:23 AM
Let's also remember the letter mentions NOTHING about copyright infringement. They may actually claim it was an outright THEFT or they could also be claiming on the basis that by Buying access to an IKS server which ONLY HAS ONE purpose, (to permit the reception of their signal without the LEGAL compensation), he was in fact "defrauding them" of their rightful revenue.

We will not know what the actual claim is unless a suit is filed.

Sure they did....they cite 'violated several federal statutes including The Digital Millennium Copyright Act' blah, blah, blah. The DMCA deals strictly with copyright infringement that is all they specialize in. Civil theft is defined as 'embezzlement, larceny, stealing, misappropriation of funds, larceny by conversion, obtaining monies under false pretense'....none of which this fits into.


The OP also SEVERELY damaged his defense, by posting the info he has. (DN will NO doubt take a screenshot of his post). In his post he admits the WAS A client of Dark Angel and that he did indeed ATTEMPT to connect but could not get it operational. This proves DN's claim that he was a client and was trying to STEAL their signal, but failed due to his ineptness. Not because the system didn't exist or that he was NEVER a client, and never paid for access to the server. He has admitted to all of these elements which IMHO supports DN's position and claim.

Attempt of copyright infringement is NOT a crime. I'm sorry but its been ruled on many times. Goolge 'attempted copyright infringement' and you'll see what I mean. The EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation) among others have seen that this does not get written into law. Its too broad reaching is why. If 'ineptness' was a preclude to being sued I would of been on the hook for the DMCA notice I received for pirating that software....or rather 'attempting' to pirate it. I 'attempted' to unlock the software piece I was using and yet I didn't succeed. The company had no grounds to pursue me. Now I wasn't in court or sued over this but I had the notice dropped against me and an apology email written.

Now again I'm not saying this will work....but its about the best defense he has unless he's going to cough up the funds. And the clock is ticking....

Also a preponderance of the evidence IS 51%. Now its up for debate whether a numerical value can actually be placed on it but that is the standard in a civil case.

Source:
http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/preponderance/

Preponderance of the evidence could be interpreted to mean a 51% chance that the evidence presented is to be believed. However, the actual application of the standard of proof is more subjective and not capable of numerical quantification.

hedo2002
01-14-2011, 11:12 AM
I didn't SAY it was a CRIME. I know they are dealing with a CIVIL matter that has been my point all along MANY people have referred to "jail" and offenses. I have taken great pains to emphasize this is a CIVIL matter dealing with a lawsuit

I researched the sections provided for in the letter. Here is what I discovered under the Electronics communications Act section 2511(1)(a).

Except as otherwise specifically provided in this chapter any person who--
(a) intentionally intercepts, endeavors to intercept, or procures any other person to intercept or endeavor to intercept, any wire, oral, or electronic communication;

As you can see it CLEARLY states "endeavors to intercept" Which IMHO clearly states that the person found liable did NOT have to "ACTUALLY" complete the act. he merely had to endeavor. Which the OP admits to in his post.

Under the DMCA:

(a) Violations Regarding Circumvention of Technological Measures.—
(1)
(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. The prohibition contained in the preceding sentence shall take effect at the end of the 2-year period beginning on the date of the enactment of this chapter.

There ARE defenses to this act, however, failure to complete the infringement based upon inability to get it to work properly is NOT one listed.

Subsection (3) of the same section of the act states:

to “circumvent a technological measure” means to descramble a scrambled work, to decrypt an encrypted work, or otherwise to avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate, or impair a technological measure, without the authority of the copyright owner; and

I have been , (thankfully on the "good side"), been in courts for most of my adult life both civil and criminal. I have yet to see a successful defense using the "your honour I was too stupid/inept to complete the intended act and as such I should be found not at liable/guilty"

I guess this person "could" be the first, but is it worth it to him. BTW the Electronic Communications Privacy Act Section 2520 also allows for damages as follows:

(b) Relief.— In an action under this section, appropriate relief includes—
(1) such preliminary and other equitable or declaratory relief as may be appropriate;
(2) damages under subsection (c) and punitive damages in appropriate cases; and
(3) a reasonable attorney’s fee and other litigation costs reasonably incurred.

(c) Computation of Damages.—
(1) In an action under this section, if the conduct in violation of this chapter is the private viewing of a private satellite video communication that is not scrambled or encrypted or if the communication is a radio communication that is transmitted on frequencies allocated under subpart D of part 74 of the rules of the Federal Communications Commission that is not scrambled or encrypted and the conduct is not for a tortious or illegal purpose or for purposes of direct or indirect commercial advantage or private commercial gain, then the court shall assess damages as follows:
(A) If the person who engaged in that conduct has not previously been enjoined under section 2511 (5) and has not been found liable in a prior civil action under this section, the court shall assess the greater of the sum of actual damages suffered by the plaintiff, or statutory damages of not less than $50 and not more than $500.
(B) If, on one prior occasion, the person who engaged in that conduct has been enjoined under section 2511 (5) or has been found liable in a civil action under this section, the court shall assess the greater of the sum of actual damages suffered by the plaintiff, or statutory damages of not less than $100 and not more than $1000.
(2) In any other action under this section, the court may assess as damages whichever is the greater of—
(A) the sum of the actual damages suffered by the plaintiff and any profits made by the violator as a result of the violation; or
(B) statutory damages of whichever is the greater of $100 a day for each day of violation or $10,000.


NOTE That the court is granted the opportunity to assess damages which ever is GREATER.

Therefore the court is not limited in that amount of damages it may assess.

Again I feel that this user NEEDS to seek IMMEDIATE and knowledgeable LEGAL opinion ASAP as he only has until 30 Jan 2011 to submit his statement and cheque to the attorney.

sodusme
01-14-2011, 11:27 AM
Yeah I have to agree with you on that....endeavors does indeed mean 'attempt'. I'm not sure when that was written into law but yeah endeavors means 'attempt' or 'effort'. I can find several instances where the RIAA which deals with copyright infringement was denied recompence because it was ruled that 'attempted' infringement was not a crime. They must of snuck that in in the middle of the night....LOL.

You didn't read that whole thing did you!?!?!?!? Cause yeah you got more patience than me hell that thing is a like a novel....LOL. I like a good debate but damn Hedo I don't think my eyes could take reading that whole thing....LOL

Yeah regardless of what us 'arm chair' lawyers say he should seek council first and foremost before doing anything.....and he needs to do it fast.

newyorkrookie4356
01-14-2011, 12:43 PM
A few more Law and Orders under my belt and i will be ready to take it all the way to the Supreme Court-lol

hedo2002
01-14-2011, 12:49 PM
I read the entire sections quoted..LOL I am used to reading laws and then the "opinions" and interpretations derived from them. I am used the to the Hereto for and such legal speak..LMAO. Now that particular section of the DCMA deals primarily with Cable and satellite as does the other statutes quoted so it may not be applicable in other forms of copyright infringement.

From what I have read this morning and the documentary evidence posted from the lawyer as well as the "evidence, (which I am sure DN has already screen shots of), I feel very badly for this user as it "appears" his battleship has been hit, (as in the old game Battleship)...LOL

bnk26
01-14-2011, 01:17 PM
thanks for that info Hedo, that is what I was thinking the way the laws would be as far as not getting it working, I was too lazy to research thanks for the leg work

hedo2002
01-14-2011, 02:09 PM
Regardless of how this turns out for the OP the BEST advice I can give ALL the members is stay as far away from ANY pay server, UNLESS your willing to accept the possibility of having a letter like this end up in your hands. As someone stated earlier $3500 can buy a LOT of SUBSCRIPTION to DN... Why place you and your families financial security in the hands of someone else that you don't know and is NOT interested in protecting you and your identity if DN were to show up???

bnk26
01-14-2011, 02:18 PM
Regardless of how this turns out for the OP the BEST advice I can give ALL the members is stay as far away from ANY pay server, UNLESS your willing to accept the possibility of having a letter like this end up in your hands. As someone stated earlier $3500 can buy a LOT of SUBSCRIPTION to DN... Why place you and your families financial security in the hands of someone else that you don't know and is NOT interested in protecting you and your identity if DN were to show up???

agreed and you and other moderators as well as other members have been giving that advice from the beginning, I hope the best for the op but as far as this site is concerned all were warned about the potential ramifications of iks etc

hedo2002
01-14-2011, 02:27 PM
A few more Law and Orders under my belt and i will be ready to take it all the way to the Supreme Court-lol

I have been to the Supreme Court, (well a case I was involved in and adjoined to), went to the Supreme Court. It isn't as exciting as it seems...LOL

Gates07
01-14-2011, 02:28 PM
I looked my old files and I could not find the Fed Court case that put a stop to DTV sending out letters, but it was in Florida where the case was heard. I do not remember what city it was listed under, or the date. And it may have been appealed. Don’t know.

It was posted on some FTA site that is no longer around, I never thought the question would ever come up again it’s been at least 4-5 years now. I’m not an attorney; there is no need for me to keep that written information. There is plenty of advice from others, and from the terminology they use they it appears to me that they have legal background.

If you or one of your friends have a PACER account then they can search the Court records and find the case. Lawyers know how to do these things. I think Washington Federal Courts are the only one still available to the public.

If you try and go to most Fed circuits now you have to pay to see an old case. This was suppose to give the Courts back some monies for operating cost, but in reality what it did was stop to the public from looking at cases on line that had been published. Lawyers have been billed for searching on line for a long time,(I think) but then again you can got to the Court house legal library and have them look it up for you.

Now if some time later DTV did send out some letters to some peeps then I would think that could be considered Contempt of Court, and some lawyer could make a case for someone that got a letter and paid. :001_unsur

hedo2002
01-14-2011, 02:54 PM
I think it was sodusme who posted info on the old DTV letters, court decisions and the agreement with the EFF and DTV earlier in the thread.

But this is a MOOT point as these letters are not, (from what has been posted thus far), being mailed out to just anyone they are VERY targeted, and they are also coming with "supporting evidence"

Lastly, DTV letters were going after people who purchased hardware that also had OTHER LEGITIMATE uses. Connecting to an IKS server has NO LEGITIMATE use other than to steal DN Signals period.

One could not argue for example that they connected to this server to, say check the recent news stories via an ONLINE news source. If they were suing people for say logging into DSSRookie one could argue they only visited the forums to look at and post in the NON Satellite related forums, say like the ATV forum etc. The ONLY reason to pay for access to this server is to STEAL DN SIGNALS..

sodusme
01-14-2011, 03:00 PM
Hell I don't even remember what I posted.....you're talking 14 pages and 133 posts....ROFLMAO. I remember saying that the comparison between DN and Dave pales considerably though as like Hedo said Dave was suing over hardware and DN is going more after the software end it looks like.

Gibson49
01-14-2011, 03:10 PM
But this is a MOOT point as these letters are not, (from what has been posted thus far), being mailed out to just anyone they are VERY targeted, and they are also coming with "supporting evidence"

Lastly, DTV letters were going after people who purchased hardware that also had OTHER LEGITIMATE uses. Connecting to an IKS server has NO LEGITIMATE use other than to steal DN Signals period.

One could not argue for example that they connected to this server to, say check the recent news stories via an ONLINE news source. If they were suing people for say logging into DSSRookie one could argue they only visited the forums to look at and post in the NON Satellite related forums, say like the ATV forum etc. The ONLY reason to pay for access to this server is to STEAL DN SIGNALS..

I totally agree Hedo, the key word in this case is supporting evidence,Both listed in the paper trail.:death:. My personal view is this is NOT something that will "go away" or you just ignore...in fact it will only intensify or escalate
into a bigger fine and court costs....:no:

Jrags
01-14-2011, 04:09 PM
Regardless of how this turns out for the OP the BEST advice I can give ALL the members is stay as far away from ANY pay server, UNLESS your willing to accept the possibility of having a letter like this end up in your hands. As someone stated earlier $3500 can buy a LOT of SUBSCRIPTION to DN... Why place you and your families financial security in the hands of someone else that you don't know and is NOT interested in protecting you and your identity if DN were to show up???

Good advice from someone with tons of experience in this hobby.

Thank you!

socal
01-14-2011, 05:34 PM
i posted Dave letter to compare it to DN letter...post 91...get your stories straight boys...j/k...lol...

hedo2002
01-14-2011, 06:48 PM
Thanks for setting the record straight I couldn't recall and I was at work so I couldn't go back 13 pages, to confirm...LOL But hey for an old man at least I remembered it had been posted...LMAO

newyorkrookie4356
01-14-2011, 08:14 PM
I been Disagreeing with the boys for years. Hedo and Sodusme that is.If they agreed with me I would start wondering if something was wrong. Its OK to diagree and not be Disagreeable. lol

bnk26
01-14-2011, 08:35 PM
I been Disagreeing with the boys for years. Hedo and Sodusme that is.If they agreed with me I would start wondering if something was wrong. Its OK to diagree and not be Disagreeable. lol

I have the opposite problem with "the boys", I tend to agree with them but agree with you it's ok to disagree and not be disagreeable

Coinshooter
01-14-2011, 08:58 PM
HuH... What dat he say there....LOL...I agree to agree... Hmmm Now I need to find what I am agreeing to... LMAO... JK...
Anyway I would agree this is just the start to an end.

hedo2002
01-14-2011, 08:59 PM
I been Disagreeing with the boys for years. Hedo and Sodusme that is.If they agreed with me I would start wondering if something was wrong. Its OK to diagree and not be Disagreeable. lol

And yet we still love you NYR..LMAO ok group hug...LMAO


it is also nice to see members being respectful even when we disagree... unlike some sites of the past, where it would turn into a pissing match with hair pulling and name calling...LOL

sodusme
01-14-2011, 09:08 PM
I agree.....:lol

aid
01-14-2011, 11:20 PM
:signs42::signs72:but :stupid::oops::signs8::signs77:

socal
01-14-2011, 11:50 PM
Thanks for setting the record straight I couldn't recall and I was at work so I couldn't go back 13 pages, to confirm...LOL But hey for an old man at least I remembered it had been posted...LMAO

i bet u aren't as old as this old fart...pushing 70...ROTFLMAO...will someone please help me off the floor...LOL

kutter
01-15-2011, 07:26 AM
You used your card to acquire goods and Service from someone. Your card issuer paid for those goods only on the promise of you paying him back. I believe if they wanted to pursue this in any state in the union they could charge you criminally. The watch word is Could. They could do alot of things but in the real world they don't. I know folks who owe credit card bills in the ionisphere. So for the sake of argument lets say Charlie wants to come after the end user criminally. Lets say you are a person with the worse luck in the world. Lets say in all of New York County(Manhatten) you are the only stiff caught by the Cable Cops. Before the cable cops can send New Yorks Finest to lock you up and send you to the Tombs to await arraignment they first must get a warrant for your arrest. I am willing to bet you my pension on that one. They would more than likely lock up Charlies lawyer and send him to Bellevue.

So lets say they go Civil. Small claims in my county is 2500 bucks meaning anything over that amount has to go before a court. Best bet for a civil case with no major drawbacks might get to court in 24 to 26 months. Any good ambulance chaser can stretch that to four five years. maybe Charlie can do alot but in the end it just easier for him to throw out the hook and see who will bite. Really i never said i had a staff lawyer and my hope is the conversation doesn't get to that level.

sorry newyorkrookie4356 I didn't mean to suggest that you personally had a staff lawyer but I though you said that the company you worked for had staff lawyers so I just assumed that you had access to them

if this letter is legit then it's obvious that charlie isn't intent on making an example of this individual ... otherwise they wouldn't have given him an easy way out ... if he settles charlie gains next to nothing ...

however, if this individual decided to fight it I'm fairly certain that he will not get away with claiming that he's not guilty because he couldn't get it to work ... it is against the law in both Canada and the US to attempt to circumvent an encrypted service ...

we all know that the courts are overloaded already and that law enforcement has better things to do ...but charlie has deep pockets ... this is a company that spends millions every year on security and legal issues so I'm sure they are prepared to go the extra mile to make an example of some ...

sodusme
01-15-2011, 08:46 AM
sorry newyorkrookie4356 I didn't mean to suggest that you personally had a staff lawyer but I though you said that the company you worked for had staff lawyers so I just assumed that you had access to them

if this letter is legit then it's obvious that charlie isn't intent on making an example of this individual ... otherwise they wouldn't have given him an easy way out ... if he settles charlie gains next to nothing ...

however, if this individual decided to fight it I'm fairly certain that he will not get away with claiming that he's not guilty because he couldn't get it to work ... it is against the law in both Canada and the US to attempt to circumvent an encrypted service ...

we all know that the courts are overloaded already and that law enforcement has better things to do ...but charlie has deep pockets ... this is a company that spends millions every year on security and legal issues so I'm sure they are prepared to go the extra mile to make an example of some ...

Any end user will get this amount. The big amounts like $15 million and $10 million and so forth are reserved for coders/programmers and the big guys like Kwak. I am willing to bet that Tabish (Dark Angel) didn't get a $3500 slap on the wrist. I highly doubt you would ever see an end user with an amount more than this unless they could prove you had 'multiple' instances of piracy? Maybe if they found you were running 2-3 different boxes all on different servers maybe?

I find it funny that Nagra has been suspiciously quiet on their site. If they REALLY wanted to put a scare into people they should post that they are sending out end user letters....and just leave it at that. Not mention where they stem from....just that they are mailing out end user letters. They haven't done an update on their main page since Dec. 20. They like to gloat a lot on that site and I'm shocked they haven't seized the moment here to panic people.

I would also like to know if the O.P knows if he is appearing in smalls claims court or not? That would make a difference like Hedo said on whether he could have access to a jury or not. I assumed in looking around on the 'net and googling that he was appearing in smalls claims court as that amount seems to be standard fair in some states. Some states more, some states less just depends.

I do hope Reggie gives us an update on whether he fought the charges :favor14,jumped a freight liner to Timbuktu :boat: ,faked his own death :death:,.....OR just decided to pay up :misc66:?:shifty:

hedo2002
01-15-2011, 09:11 AM
DN doesn't really need to gain a lot financially from this the MAIN ploy of this tactic is as Sodusme eluded to... To scare people off of servers. I bet there are a few who have logged off the servers they were connected to.

Of course there will always be those who are STUPID and have the "it'll never happen to me" attitude and then of course MANY who just don't bother to read or educate themselves.

BUT anyone with any great level of intelligence and a healthy "risk tolerance" level will not even go near a PAY server.

Now as I have said a PRIVATE server is a totally different kettle of fish and if it is run as a TRUE private server the risk is minimal. The risk with a PAY server is HUGE

kutter
01-15-2011, 10:14 AM
when I suggested there was nothing much gained I wasn't referring to financially ... if there's no court case then there's no public proof that it ever occurred ... scare tactics work much better if it's publicly documented as many will simply suggest that without proof it didn't really happen :)

hedo2002
01-15-2011, 11:17 AM
when I suggested there was nothing much gained I wasn't referring to financially ... if there's no court case then there's no public proof that it ever occurred ... scare tactics work much better if it's publicly documented as many will simply suggest that without proof it didn't really happen :)

True, there will always be those who bury their head in the sand and therefore justify in their minds that it never happened.

But there will be some documentation on the seizure of the Dark Angel server, as they alluded to gaining the users info from records seized via a search warrant. Unfortunately if it was done via an Anton Pillar order we may not see anything publicly for weeks or months. Especially if they are planning more PAY server raids, (which there is no reason to think they aren't gathering evidence on others).

It think the important thing to pass along to the members is this IS a risky move, (connecting to a PAY server), and if these letters are being sent out, then it just got a LOT more risky to be dealing with these PAY servers.

IF Dn can "knock" 10,000 users off of PAY servers then that is potentially 10,000 more subs. To m and you that would be a nice revenue stream to them it is still peanuts, BUT it is more than they had before and it shows they are willing to go all the way in stopping MOST piracy. They will IMHO NEVER stop ALL piracy

Gates07
01-15-2011, 12:59 PM
I was wondering if Dish actually posted this letter to see what kind of response the peeps would give?? I have seen this same letter at other sites and the responses given at other sites, lots of opinions given. Test the waters before that actual sending out of letters.:p

sodusme
01-15-2011, 01:06 PM
I agree Hedo I'm no P.H.D but I got enough smarts to know that if these guys running servers can be brought down....so can I. I will be the first to admit that I don't know squat about running a server except what I have read and gleaned on here and from the 'net. Private yeah that seems like the way to go. Keep it small friends/family/co-workers maybe. Now that Tabish guy (Dark Angel) was in British Columbia so I'm thinking you are correct Canada is where they do the Anton Pillar orders?

Now this is interesting. I was just reading through some court docs on Dark Angel and I took note of this:


( b ) established and operated, or assisted in establishing and operating, the IKS servers available via the Websites (the "Dark Angel IKS Servers"), which distribute Control Words to enable end-users to steal DiSH Network Programming;

and this:


( e ) created and distributed piracy software and satellite hardware modified for piracy purposes, including by developing IKS Server hardware, that includes an internal computer and multiple Access Card readers, thereby creating a self-contained IKS Server configuration with all required components built into one "box";

With that information I would almost bet they got their hands on a server....or two. Depending on what he had running. Now another user eluded to the fact that servers purge information or don't maintain it but its my understanding that has to be done manually by the webmaster or admin.

hedo2002
01-15-2011, 01:27 PM
I agree Hedo I'm no P.H.D but I got enough smarts to know that if these guys running servers can be brought down....so can I. I will be the first to admit that I don't know squat about running a server except what I have read and gleaned on here and from the 'net. Private yeah that seems like the way to go. Keep it small friends/family/co-workers maybe. Now that Tabish guy (Dark Angel) was in British Columbia so I'm thinking you are correct Canada is where they do the Anton Pillar orders?

Now this is interesting. I was just reading through some court docs on Dark Angel and I took note of this:

and this:

With that information I would almost bet they got their hands on a server....or two. Depending on what he had running. Now another user eluded to the fact that servers purge information or don't maintain it but its my understanding that has to be done manually by the webmaster or admin.

I have little doubt that DN seized the server, all records. Yes the logs can be purged is also my understanding but it has to be done on a constant basis. Also although the "server" may not contain vital info I still maintain somewhere., somehow the server op HAS to maintain records otherwise how does he confirm WHO is supposed to be getting access and who to cut off when the bill goes unpaid or add someone when a new order comes in?

I mean if your running a server with say 5 - 10 people that info could I guess be remembered, BUT, if your running a PAY sever with THOUSANDS of users you HAVE to keep records of some sort.

I know from my old DB days, (lots of reading), the server OP MUST input the info, (user name and Passwords etc into a file on the server), generally using RQCS files...So there has to at some point be a "link" between user and the the info recorded.

olympusom
01-15-2011, 01:47 PM
if membory serves me( could be a bit fuzzy on this but) when using a db as hedo mentioned , yes the users have to be entered and if the unit were compromised, then all user info would be available unless the box was overwritten with a new image

hedo2002
01-15-2011, 02:01 PM
( e ) created and distributed piracy software and satellite hardware modified for piracy purposes, including by developing IKS Server hardware, that includes an internal computer and multiple Access Card readers, thereby creating a self-contained IKS Server configuration with all required components built into one "box";

Well He "may" have a defense on the software portion of this one as it is MY understanding he didn't "create" anything he merely STOLE others works and labeled it as his... ROFLMAO. But as usual THIEVES have NO honor

olympusom
01-15-2011, 02:11 PM
lmao... ali baba

sodusme
01-15-2011, 02:21 PM
( e ) created and distributed piracy software and satellite hardware modified for piracy purposes, including by developing IKS Server hardware, that includes an internal computer and multiple Access Card readers, thereby creating a self-contained IKS Server configuration with all required components built into one "box";

Well He "may" have a defense on the software portion of this one as it is MY understanding he didn't "create" anything he merely STOLE others works and labeled it as his... ROFLMAO. But as usual THIEVES have NO honor

Dark Angel: "Your honor thats a damn lie....I didn't create anything I STOLE it"!!!! hmm3grin2o

No honor among thieves is right. I got a buddy that made a private program for 'circumventing' pr0n sites. This thing does every thing and every site login possible. He asked me and a handful of others to be testers. We actually got to be listed in the 'about' tab on his program. We were instructed to NOT share his program with anyone. Long story short....you guessed it....this thing is now whored out all OVER the internet.

It just goes to show you you really have to know and trust who you are bringing into your inner circle. Especially when it deals with software related things.

1919a6
01-15-2011, 11:20 PM
Someone I knew back in the BUD days only sold his service to cops and judges. He never did a day when he got busted. Seems that it just went away.....

hedo2002
01-16-2011, 07:19 AM
Someone I knew back in the BUD days only sold his service to cops and judges. He never did a day when he got busted. Seems that it just went away.....

Well of course he wouldn't "do a day" given that it is a CIVIL matter not a criminal matter.

kutter
01-16-2011, 08:05 AM
it's not always a given that it's a CIVIL matter ... it depends who went after him and what 1919a6 meant by he got busted ...

sodusme
01-16-2011, 11:36 AM
I think if it was on a large enough scale it could of been considered criminal....possibly. I see they are also throwing around this RICO act? on their site as a means to charge people.

hedo2002
01-16-2011, 11:41 AM
I think DN would be very hard pressed to use RICO as they would require the FBI to start chasing down server ops. If/when they are successful with Dark Angel I suspect the FBI would just say use the CIVIL courts not our time and the already full Federal courts for this.

For those unaware Here is the Wiki interpretation of RICO:

The Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (commonly referred to as RICO Act or RICO) is a United States federal law that provides for extended criminal penalties and a civil cause of action for acts performed as part of an ongoing criminal organization. RICO was enacted by section 901(a) of the Organized Crime Control Act of 1970 (Pub.L. 91-452, 84 Stat. 922, enacted October 15, 1970). RICO is codified as Chapter 96 of Title 18 of the United States Code, 18 U.S.C. § 1961–1968. While its intended use was to prosecute the Mafia as well as others who were actively engaged in organized crime, its application has been more widespread.

sodusme
01-16-2011, 02:42 PM
I'd like to believe they wouldn't but Nagra's website says something different....

Source: I think we all know where this came from under the FAQ's tab


Does organized Satellite theft fall under the RICO act?

* Yes absolutely, manufacturers, Importers, Internet chat forums, dealers and retailers are all involved in the organized proliferation of illegal satellite broadcasting theft.
* The proceeds of which are then funneled to other illicit organized crime syndicates and terrorist group activities.

I'm not sure what they mean by 'internet chat forums' cause if they mean a forum like rookies....than ya'll are holding out on me and not funneling my share of 'illicit' proceeds to me....which saddens me deeply. :ohmy: Lets step up the game a bit I could use a new house in Florida and a new Cadillac. hmm3grin2o

hedo2002
01-16-2011, 03:00 PM
It says the proceeds are funneled to organized crime groups and terrorist...

So get in line behind the drug gangs, Hell's Angel's and Osama...LMAO Or you can always fight them for your cut...LOL

olympusom
01-16-2011, 03:04 PM
well you're not the only one missing out. heck we don't even get funnel cake, yet alone any funneled proceeds. Now if they consider nick at night a proceed, being funneled to the organized crime syndicates and or terroists.... lmao.. they are reaching

kutter
01-16-2011, 05:50 PM
while it's not all that common some do face charges ... why do you think Kwak went to jail ... it certainly wasn't because of a civil suit ...

look at the guy in Windsor who got $10,000 worth of fines just a couple of weeks ago ... small time dealer alright ... but it shows that if the circumstances are right the RCMP will press charges :)

hedo2002
01-17-2011, 11:23 AM
Wasn't "charged" for IKS or anything related to it, it was his "activities" related to hiring people to try to compromise the N3 cards. He is lucky they didn't use the RICO statutes on him.

Posted date: 10/26/2009
Three Plead Guilty in Satellite TV Hacking Case

Three men indicted on a single count of violating the federal copyright law pleaded guilty before U.S. District Judge Anthony Battaglia Oct. 23.

According to federal prosecutors, the defendants, Jung Kwak of Oceanside, and Phillip Allison and Robert Ward, both of Seminole, Fla., admitted that beginning in March 2008 they hired computer hackers to break the latest Dish Network encryption design so that the line of satellite receiver boxes sold by Kwak would continue to have a market.

Kwak is the owner of Viewtech, an importer of the satellite boxes that allow users to obtain a limited amount of free programming, most of it consisting of ethnic and religious programs. But by reverse engineering smart cards provided by Dish, the boxes could obtain more signals illegally, prosecutors said.

By late 2007, Dish created a new encryption scheme that would prevent the boxes from gaining access to the signal without purchasing a subscription, prosecutors said.

In his pleading, Kwak admitted meeting and paying $20,000 in cash to another person to dissect the Dish smart card. Kwak also admitted he offered a $250,000 reward to hackers to obtain the latest Dish smart card, according to federal prosecutors.

The three defendants face maximum prison time of five years and $250,000 in fines at their scheduled sentencing on Jan. 22.

It was sort of like Al Capone they couldn't get him on what they really wanted him on so they found "creative" solutions.

But this is ALL off topic we are to be discussing the letters from DN.

kutter
01-18-2011, 07:22 AM
I was simply providing a couple of examples to show that it's not always a civil matter ...

if this letter is legit charlie hasn't indicated how he will proceed nor do we know how the OP will proceed ... this part of the discussion occurred because some were suggesting that he should just use an admission of guilt as a defense ...

I don't see how it's off topic ...

hedo2002
01-18-2011, 12:03 PM
The letter does state that if the "requirements" weren't met at the end of 30 days, there may be "suits filed without further notice" That to me indicates that they are planning to go the civil route as opposed to any criminal proceedings.

kutter
01-18-2011, 08:28 PM
yes that's what they letter says ... and I agree it will be a civil suit :)

aid
01-18-2011, 08:39 PM
It's been 11 days since the thread was started and no other reports that I have seen on the net other then this one being copied.

Gibson49
01-18-2011, 09:54 PM
Makes Ya wonder, or the OTHERS are to scared to admit they got
a letter. The problem with this letter, IF TRUE, is they have the proof
and by the time you receive it your Done.
OR.... the whole thing was a Scare Tactic...and if this is true, it opens a whole fresh can of worms and I won't go there at this time till
I know more... Or at least hear more.

Gary Gnu
01-18-2011, 10:07 PM
You have to wonder what makes this letter any different from the dave letters for sure... There was no shortage of people talking about that and exchanging advice...

aid
01-18-2011, 10:07 PM
If someone has a pacer account could they look into?

aid
01-18-2011, 10:09 PM
If this letter is BS it has served it's purpose. I bet a lot of people have dropped there pay server.

sodusme
01-19-2011, 07:52 AM
I kind of wondered about that too Aid since the O.P's first post was kind of cryptic in nature. I wish he would post back and let us know what he did....or is going to do?

hedo2002
01-19-2011, 08:23 AM
If someone has a pacer account could they look into?

There is no sense looking, as it is, (IF it is legit), merely a warning letter and therefore there would be nothing registered with the courts therefore nothing on pacer. It would take for DN to file an actual suit before it would be found in a search on pacer.

Gibson49
01-19-2011, 02:21 PM
TRUE!
If you don't comply THEN we will file charges and continue this
with drastic circumstances for the end user. In essence they have you
both ways, ignore it, or comply they have your letter stating you
admit to being guilty. Paying it you say Guilty.

Give it more time to watch this is all the members can do for now...
Either this is a very good hoax or scare tactic which has served it's
purpose......18 pages / 10,400 views here proves this quite well.

Jrags
01-19-2011, 03:05 PM
I kind of wondered about that too Aid since the O.P's first post was kind of cryptic in nature. I wish he would post back and let us know what he did....or is going to do?

The fact that the OP is not interacting with thread comments makes his posting suspicious. I now tend to believe that the letter is a C/P from a Dave letter. Note that there is no Charlie letterhead.

Nonetheless, the comments by members here have been very informative. I have learned a lot.

sodusme
01-19-2011, 03:18 PM
The fact that the OP is not interacting with thread comments makes his posting suspicious. I now tend to believe that the letter is a C/P from a Dave letter. Note that there is no Charlie letterhead.

Nonetheless, the comments by members here have been very informative. I have learned a lot.

I don't know it would have to be a damn good one. I see mention of the Robert Ward case and Blacklist case in the footer on the first page. It even mentions the case and docket #'s on those which would be pretty hard to track down I believe.

Yeah you wouldn't get anything on Pacer with this. His court case says 'TBD' To Be Determined. So he hasn't been assigned a case # yet. They are waiting for his reply to proceed.

Gary Gnu
01-19-2011, 03:36 PM
I don't know it would have to be a damn good one. I see mention of the Robert Ward case and Blacklist case in the footer on the first page. It even mentions the case and docket #'s on those which would be pretty hard to track down I believe.

Yeah you wouldn't get anything on Pacer with this. His court case says 'TBD' To Be Determined. So he hasn't been assigned a case # yet. They are waiting for his reply to proceed.

But thats all public info now so still not impossible.

hedo2002
01-19-2011, 05:08 PM
For the member that stated it had "no DN letterhead". Well it wouldn't as it isn't a DN letter it is from the ATTORNEY representing them, and they would have no authority to use Dn's letterhead, nor would DN want them too.

It is similar to my business using an attorney to sue someone, they don't send it using my letterhead. They use their own letterhead and merely state that they are "acting on my behalf", OR they are "representing our client, Company xyz".

As for not continuing to post it "could be" he has been slapped with a "gag order" How many coders whom DN went after were ordered not to communicate the specifics nor visit any forums etc. I am sure that is not the case here BUT it is a possibility.

Even IF this were a "hoax", I doubt it will be long before we actually see letters like this begin to surface. IF they got the type of info that is reported in this letter then it is only a matter of time. If they didn't then rest assured they WILL get this info when they raid other PAY servers and leave little doubt in your mind... they WILL be going after PAY servers as their next target against Piracy as it is still the largest and still growing form of piracy. They are slowing closing the noose around the neck of FTA and this is one of their last big hurdles.

slickrod
01-19-2011, 06:47 PM
on behalf of most of the members in this thread, i plead with reggiebusbee to respond to all these comments...

tells us, are these letters legit, or a hoax?? your username and your so called letters have made their rounds onto many a sites, and you have not responded to any of them??

for the sake of the testing community, lets hear what you have to say.....or what you are planning on doing if these are legit??

anything, anything......;)

aid
01-19-2011, 07:04 PM
If it's a hoax the user will not say so. It could be dn them self's using a cheap way of getting people off PS.

slickrod
01-19-2011, 09:38 PM
hmmmm....finally something else to talk about now......now it gets more and more interesting....stay tuned!!!

wrangler
01-19-2011, 11:06 PM
Finally another post stating they recieved a letter. If you read velvet e's previous posts it's obvious pay CS was used. What appals me is the sites that have vendors that you can PM and get hooked up on pay CS. This is so inherently dangerous for both the members and the site that I am dumbfounded that it's allowed to happen. People mistake private for pay sites and there is nothing private about the latter. This will surely be the downfall of IKS and FTA in general so then we can actually get back to some real testing. It's about time, and if I were using this method I would cease and desist. I surely wouldn't post on an open forum about how I'm using it and how many channels I'm getting. That will just send up a red flag to JJ's spies and put you on the list. JMO! but it IS happening. You have been warned!

Gary Gnu
01-19-2011, 11:11 PM
Some have their own site up advertising pay servers too, its not just the fta sites . Rookie is about the only site without those sections too.

And even still, why no attorney's letterhead on the docs ?

Gary Gnu
01-19-2011, 11:38 PM
Would you consider hiding your name and posting it ?

Gary Gnu
01-19-2011, 11:49 PM
It would help to set in for many users of these so called private servers, if they could finally see a letterhead attached which would prove these arent bogus... If you dont want to thats fine it was only a suggestion. You have nothing to worry about if you werent advised not to use a pc or visit an fta site in the letter.

Gibson49
01-19-2011, 11:52 PM
YES I am curious as well BUT.....

I have to agree that would NOT be a good idea to post this info
or the attorney's info...
My personal opinion is it may get a severe reaction from the firm
and you already have enough problems... Just my personal view....
As they say curiosity Killed something.... LOL.

Gary Gnu
01-19-2011, 11:57 PM
YES I am curious as well BUT.....

I have to agree that would NOT be a good idea to post this info
or the attorney's info...
My personal opinion is it may get a severe reaction from the firm
and you already have enough problems... Just my personal view....
As they say curiosity Killed something.... LOL.

He either pays or they sue him further... Obviously anyone that gets these is most likely to pay them considering what it would cost to fight it, so what harm could be done by posting the letterhead ? A name will do and the address and phone can be blocked out along with his info.... just sayin.

Gibson49
01-20-2011, 12:01 AM
If it was ME no way would I post it.... That's just me.
That is just personal info that doesn't need to me posted on the site
nor where we now have 20 pages...and 11,000 views..
Like NOBODY will see it... LMAO.

BTW... I think the rules state no personal info to be posted......

Gary Gnu
01-20-2011, 12:20 AM
The personal stuff could be blocked out as I said... Really no different then the OP's posted documents, except the letterhead. Not really different from any other legal docs posted here either IMO anyway..

Gibson49
01-20-2011, 12:25 AM
The personal stuff could be blocked out as I said... Really no different then the OP's posted documents, except the letterhead. Not really different from any other legal docs posted here either IMO anyway..

Not personal posting the attorney's NAME? LOL
I sure wouldn't want to get the Attorney ticked off at me!
and besides he already stated he wasn't interested in discussing it further so lets let it go....

frenchquarters
01-20-2011, 12:43 AM
I have not recieved a letter from Dish, but I recieved one from Direct a few years back demanding money for their service. I ignored my letter, a freind of mine recieved the same letter and awnsered it he settled for a small amount of cash. By ignoring mine I never recieved another letter or heard another word, I would never reply to a letter demanding money and It wouldn't matter how many attorneys names are in the letterhead, or how official it looks, I would only worry if a person showed up at my house serving papers giving me a court date, the cost for Dish to go to this extreme would not be likely not saying it wouldn't happen but again not it's likely. If you were not seen doing anything wrong how can it be proved you did, unless you reply to the letter offering to settle. I think dish would be on really thin ice if they go to court without proof or admission. I think before I got a letter, I would advertise my FTA stuff on craigslist or a newspaper selling it, giving a reason in the paper stating you could never make it work and your selling it cheap, you don't have to sell it, but it gives you a paper trail showing you never could make it work. The first smart attorney that beats Dish in court, it's game over.

Gary Gnu
01-20-2011, 01:41 AM
If you were not seen doing anything wrong how can it be proved you did, unless you reply to the letter offering to settle. I think dish would be on really thin ice if they go to court without proof or admission.

There was proof right down to payment info...

sodusme
01-20-2011, 07:43 AM
We all knew it would come one day (well most of us in the know did).....I'm sorry to see its effecting two of our own members here.

Velvet, is it from the use of Dark Angels server or have they compromised another server?

*EDIT* Sorry just read back through the thread and found it.


I have not recieved a letter from Dish, but I recieved one from Direct a few years back demanding money for their service. I ignored my letter, a freind of mine recieved the same letter and awnsered it he settled for a small amount of cash. By ignoring mine I never recieved another letter or heard another word, I would never reply to a letter demanding money and It wouldn't matter how many attorneys names are in the letterhead, or how official it looks, I would only worry if a person showed up at my house serving papers giving me a court date, the cost for Dish to go to this extreme would not be likely not saying it wouldn't happen but again not it's likely. If you were not seen doing anything wrong how can it be proved you did, unless you reply to the letter offering to settle. I think dish would be on really thin ice if they go to court without proof or admission. I think before I got a letter, I would advertise my FTA stuff on craigslist or a newspaper selling it, giving a reason in the paper stating you could never make it work and your selling it cheap, you don't have to sell it, but it gives you a paper trail showing you never could make it work. The first smart attorney that beats Dish in court, it's game over.

I'm sorry but that is VERY bad advice to give in this matter. There was a HUGE difference in the DTV letters. They were suing for using 'equipment'....equipment that had many, many other uses and they knew it. DN is suing people that they have on paper sending payment for use of a server.....a server that had ONE purpose and one purpose only and that was to circumvent the providers signal. They also have knowledge of software and stb's being bought....software and stb's that had ONE purpose and one purpose only. They also have an i.p. logged on a server....again a server that had what? ONE purpose only. You could use this defense for yourself but please its very reckless to recommend to someone else. You will wind up getting someone in deeper trouble with those kind of statements.

hedo2002
01-20-2011, 09:53 AM
First off I don't think we need to see more documents "posted" the first letter was posted and as Gibson pointed out, your posting the law firms letterhead "could" land you in hot water with them too.

Secondly these letters ARE MARKEDLY different than those sent out by Dave, as has been discussed to no end in this thread. These letters are for a totally different reason they are TARGETED and they come with PROOF that the end user sent money into an illegal enterprise. For ANYONE to offer the advice "just ignore it", is irresponsible and down right WRONG.

These letters are targeted and they will in all likelihood NOT just go away as the Dave letters did. I would caution ANYONE who receives this type of letter to contact an attorney IMMEDIATELY. Once authenticity is confirmed then as Velvet's attorney told him this is a VERY SERIOUS matter, and you should deal with it, they "may" be willing to accept a payment plan.

I have stated for YEARS people should make an EDUCATED decision and weigh the Risks associated with ANY purchase, be it an FTA unit, now IKS PAY Servers etc.


If one didn't educate themselves as to the risk associated then they will be screwed as Velvet apparently is in that he admits he doesn't have the money to pay them off.

If it isn't dealt with and they have the proof they claimed and we saw in the first letter, it "could" end up costing him AND HIS FAMILY a LOT more in the end.

So EVERY end user who is connected to a PAY server or is considering it needs to ask do I have $3500 to send off to DN if the answer is no then you need to reconsider your decision.

Dark Angel's server is just the FIRST we WILL continue to see servers seized business records fall under warrants or Anton Pillar orders, and we will see a rise in these letters and tactics by DN until the LAST PAY server is gone.

I suspect that as a result of this thread and the comments made in it we "may" see law firms also warning people against posting ANY info or the "penalties" will be said to be more severe.

There will no doubt be those in the community who insist upon drinking the Koolaid and insisting these letters are fake, BUT is it worth the RISK to you???

hedo2002
01-20-2011, 10:04 AM
Finally another post stating they recieved a letter. If you read velvet e's previous posts it's obvious pay CS was used. What appals me is the sites that have vendors that you can PM and get hooked up on pay CS. This is so inherently dangerous for both the members and the site that I am dumbfounded that it's allowed to happen. People mistake private for pay sites and there is nothing private about the latter. This will surely be the downfall of IKS and FTA in general so then we can actually get back to some real testing. It's about time, and if I were using this method I would cease and desist. I surely wouldn't post on an open forum about how I'm using it and how many channels I'm getting. That will just send up a red flag to JJ's spies and put you on the list. JMO! but it IS happening. You have been warned!

The staff here at Rookie have been debating what/how much discussion we are willing to permit. I agree SOME sites are placing their admins and members at a great risk I hope DSSRookie will in the end remain true to it's roots and continue as we always have to placing our members safety and security above "site traffic" or whatever other "short term benefits" these other sites are thinking they are getting.

For now our site rule 18 remains in force.

sodusme
01-20-2011, 11:47 AM
The staff here at Rookie have been debating what/how much discussion we are willing to permit. I agree SOME sites are placing their admins and members at a great risk I hope DSSRookie will in the end remain true to it's roots and continue as we always have to placing our members safety and security above "site traffic" or whatever other "short term benefits" these other sites are thinking they are getting.

For now our site rule 18 remains in force.

I applaud that post hedo....

I'll share a brief story with you all. I logged into a site about 4 weeks ago. I read a post by other members that said the site had some strange script showing up on it when you tried to post. I have contacts on other forums that deal with this kind of website 'circumventing'. I dropped a pm to my admin on a forum where I'm staff at spelling out this 'script' that everyone was getting. Long story short the site had been 'shelled' which means it was hacked and all user information was up for grabs from there. All login information, all posts, all pms' and all email information....up for grabs. Now it just so happens this site offers assistance for a particular 'pay server' and even has representatives from that pay server on the site to answer questions.

Although it was a site that I have been a member of for some 2 years and have met some great people, I logged out of the site and no longer frequent it. Thats trouble that I don't need.

Sorry that this was a bit off topic but I think it goes hand in hand with what hedo just posted.

P.S. Please do not pm as I won't tell the name of the site nor will I post it here. I have passed it along to the mods and admin here so they can better protect us hopefully.

wrangler
01-21-2011, 12:20 AM
It seems to me that Rookie is the only voice of reason concerning this method. Rule #18 is a very smart move to protect the site and it's members. Maybe that's why after all these years Rookie is still standing while so many others have fallen by the wayside. Thanks to Falcon and staff for keeping this the safest site for your testing needs instead of letting greed rule your thinking.

hedo2002
01-22-2011, 08:37 AM
It seems to me that Rookie is the only voice of reason concerning this method. Rule #18 is a very smart move to protect the site and it's members. Maybe that's why after all these years Rookie is still standing while so many others have fallen by the wayside. Thanks to Falcon and staff for keeping this the safest site for your testing needs instead of letting greed rule your thinking.

We have always stated that ANYONE and EVERYONE should have a sub. Ever since the introduction of IKS by nFusion in 2009, (even though they at the time denied that is what they were doing), I have STRONGLY emphasized that at "some point" DN will get around to the end users. People constantly challenged this notion stating it would be "too expensive". Well it seems DN learned form Dave's errors and had their "ducks all in a row" before they started these "actions". This is NOT the end they WILL continue to hunt down any/all PAY servers. Will they then go after TRUE PRIVATE servers? I have no idea but I wouldn't be surprised. There WILL always be some form if Piracy, IMHO but the "mass piracy" of days gone by is quickly drawing to a close.

So PLEASE carefully consider the risk, to you AND your families financial security, for what some "stolen tv"??? Get a sub and you will NEVER have a letter arrive or be wondering if/when one will arrive, at YOUR door.

The Human
01-22-2011, 01:02 PM
i always seeing people recommending subbing, even if you are testing. but i have a different take on this. you see, when you sub to 1 of the providers, you agree to their customer agreement. this agreement has things in it that you agree not to do that are not violations of law. so if you have a sub and test, thus violating their customer agreement, you are at greater exposure to civil liability than if you did not sub and thus had not agreed to their customer agreement. an example would be sub stacking, which is not illegal, but it does violate the providers customer agreement. when you sub you argee to abide by their customer agreement, and if you violate that agreement you can be civilly liable for that even though you did not violate any law. well thats my take on it, just thought some should be aware of this issue. i am in no way recommending people sub, or not sub, i am just trying to give you something to consider when doing so.

hedo2002
01-22-2011, 01:17 PM
i always seeing people recommending subbing, even if you are testing. but i have a different take on this. you see, when you sub to 1 of the providers, you agree to their customer agreement. this agreement has things in it that you agree not to do that are not violations of law. so if you have a sub and test, thus violating their customer agreement, you are at greater exposure to civil liability than if you did not sub and thus had not agreed to their customer agreement. an example would be sub stacking, which is not illegal, but it does violate the providers customer agreement. when you sub you argee to abide by their customer agreement, and if you violate that agreement you can be civilly liable for that even though you did not violate any law. well thats my take on it, just thought some should be aware of this issue. i am in no way recommending people sub, or not sub, i am just trying to give you something to consider when doing so.

Firstly, there are VERY VERY VERY few users that actually "TEST", MOST are just STEALING the provider's signals, or are "FREE TV'ers".

Normally when staff here recommend users SUB we are suggesting that they these people NOT be involved in the STEALING of the provider's signals. My previous post CLEARLY states that end users should IMMEDIATELY disconnect from ANY PAY server they are connected to, and then get a SUB I was not suggesting to do both simultaneously.

But thanks for making that point to our members as well it is ALWAYS good to read the conditions of ANY contract before signing it.

newyorkrookie4356
01-22-2011, 10:50 PM
Really thought i was using nfusion in 2006 i could be wrong. If sitting around waiting for some coder to write a fix and loading it is testing. Someone please pinch me because i must be dreaming. I do agree that the way things were are just memories now. Mass stealing is over. I think we were down maybe a year in the transition from dave to charlie. Funny -When I am doing it,its called testing when the other guy is doing it -Its called stealing or free TVing.
In the real world -If you are not paying for something that others are - you are stealing- Period. I would love to be there when you tell the judge you were just testing,bank security, when you walked out of the bank with that bag of money-lol

Remember everytime they build a better mousetrap the mouse just has to get smarter.

sodusme
01-23-2011, 09:28 AM
Really thought i was using nfusion in 2006 i could be wrong. If sitting around waiting for some coder to write a fix and loading it is testing. Someone please pinch me because i must be dreaming. I do agree that the way things were are just memories now. Mass stealing is over. I think we were down maybe a year in the transition from dave to charlie. Funny -When I am doing it,its called testing when the other guy is doing it -Its called stealing or free TVing.
In the real world -If you are not paying for something that others are - you are stealing- Period. I would love to be there when you tell the judge you were just testing,bank security, when you walked out of the bank with that bag of money-lol

Remember everytime they build a better mousetrap the mouse just has to get smarter.

Not to get too far off track but yeah I personally never bought into the whole 'testing' montage....no matter how many subs you have if you are circumventing the providers signal....that is stealing....LOL.

I think though that most of the old timers see 'testing' as more than coming here and bin begging which I don't believe you ever participated in NYR nor did I or many others here I'm sure. To me personally 'testing' is loading a bin wrong on your Pansat 2500 so you can see what it does and maybe have to jtag it back to life. Or learning to write your own bins for the 2500 after the source code was given out and Fwank and JVVH were kind of enough to hold class and teach us how to do it....to me that is testing. Or in later years loading software and trying to get a 'virtual' IHUB to run. To me it encompasses more than just button pushing (as in entering in keys) from the remote....LOL.

I believe you may have been running Nfusion in 2006 as that is when I joined rookies and one thing I applauded them on at that time was the mods weren't jumping on the IKS bandwagon like every other site. I also remember reading the ridiculous statements around that time that people were posting on how to use proxies and "bounce all over the world"....I'm sure you all remember reading that phrase in one of the more popular 'how to's" that got posted....LOL.

So yeah if you've ever fried a box and brought it back to life....you were testing. If you ever coded your own bin for the Pansat 2500 (got it wrong but kept trying) and loaded it....you were testing. If you ever attempted to run a 'virtural' IHUB but couldn't get it right....you were testing. If your FTA time consisted of simply loading keys....you were nothing but a free TV'er....sorry....LOL.

newyorkrookie4356
01-23-2011, 09:34 AM
Lets keep it going we are making history at Rook-lol So i won't get whacked for thread jacking. A charlie letter to an end user would be great to see. if anybody has one other than dark angels i would like to see it. imho dark angel should be half of the dumb and dumber duo-lol

Spired12
01-23-2011, 10:36 AM
After reading the last few posts on this thread . I found out that I am a free tv'er. I personally REFUSE to sub. I am strictly OTA. I am not in the least bit interested in becoming a so called tester.I have contributed to this site as best I could and tried to help out to the best of my ability. I have paid numerous times for VIP to help out the site, as I believe it is a great site, and a great group of people. I for one take offense to the assumption that free tv'ers are here just for free tv, that is not so. This is a hobby for some of you . I have other hobbies that occupy my time .I immerse my time in other hobbies so if I have to pick the brains of some one else that knows what they are doing I will. When I read about free tv'ers I get the impression that we are less valuable to the site.{NOT SO}We free tv'ers contribute by asking so called dumb questions ,as part of the learning process. I for one learned alot from free tv'er ,as they mostly talk in layman,s terms. I truly respect the testers who spend vasts amount of money in this hobby for all of us to reap the benefits of tv. However I am not in any way shape or form a lower class of citizen in the FTA/OTA world. When iks was a solution to tv.The main players on this site said it was a bad idea. I took their advice and did not go there.I know that they knew what they were talking about. "Thank you testers"for solid advice. "thank you free tv'ers" for asking so called dumb questions,because I was to shy to ask.

aid
01-23-2011, 10:56 AM
After reading the last few posts on this thread . I found out that I am a free tv'er. I personally REFUSE to sub. I am strictly OTA. I am not in the least bit interested in becoming a so called tester.I have contributed to this site as best I could and tried to help out to the best of my ability. I have paid numerous times for VIP to help out the site, as I believe it is a great site, and a great group of people. I for one take offense to the assumption that free tv'ers are here just for free tv, that is not so. This is a hobby for some of you . I have other hobbies that occupy my time .I immerse my time in other hobbies so if I have to pick the brains of some one else that knows what they are doing I will. When I read about free tv'ers I get the impression that we are less valuable to the site.{NOT SO}We free tv'ers contribute by asking so called dumb questions ,as part of the learning process. I for one learned alot from free tv'er ,as they mostly talk in layman,s terms. I truly respect the testers who spend vasts amount of money in this hobby for all of us to reap the benefits of tv. However I am not in any way shape or form a lower class of citizen in the FTA/OTA world. When iks was a solution to tv.The main players on this site said it was a bad idea. I took their advice and did not go there.I know that they knew what they were talking about. "Thank you testers"for solid advice. "thank you free tv'ers" for asking so called dumb questions,because I was to shy to ask.

You are not a freeTver you do give back to the community and your post count says so. You have also donated to the site so pay no heed to those comments all over this site.

newyorkrookie4356
01-23-2011, 11:19 AM
After reading the last few posts on this thread . I found out that I am a free tv'er. I personally REFUSE to sub. I am strictly OTA. I am not in the least bit interested in becoming a so called tester.I have contributed to this site as best I could and tried to help out to the best of my ability. I have paid numerous times for VIP to help out the site, as I believe it is a great site, and a great group of people. I for one take offense to the assumption that free tv'ers are here just for free tv, that is not so. This is a hobby for some of you . I have other hobbies that occupy my time .I immerse my time in other hobbies so if I have to pick the brains of some one else that knows what they are doing I will. When I read about free tv'ers I get the impression that we are less valuable to the site.{NOT SO}We free tv'ers contribute by asking so called dumb questions ,as part of the learning process. I for one learned alot from free tv'er ,as they mostly talk in layman,s terms. I truly respect the testers who spend vasts amount of money in this hobby for all of us to reap the benefits of tv. However I am not in any way shape or form a lower class of citizen in the FTA/OTA world. When iks was a solution to tv.The main players on this site said it was a bad idea. I took their advice and did not go there.I know that they knew what they were talking about. "Thank you testers"for solid advice. "thank you free tv'ers" for asking so called dumb questions,because I was to shy to ask.

Just don't call me late for Dinner-lol Human nature is What I am doing is right and what you are Doing must be Wrong.- I learned long ago just let stuff roll off your back! Everybody at Rook is of equal value to me.

dssturk
01-23-2011, 11:45 AM
After reading the last few posts on this thread . I found out that I am a free tv'er. I personally REFUSE to sub. I am strictly OTA. I am not in the least bit interested in becoming a so called tester.I have contributed to this site as best I could and tried to help out to the best of my ability. I have paid numerous times for VIP to help out the site, as I believe it is a great site, and a great group of people. I for one take offense to the assumption that free tv'ers are here just for free tv, that is not so. This is a hobby for some of you . I have other hobbies that occupy my time .I immerse my time in other hobbies so if I have to pick the brains of some one else that knows what they are doing I will. When I read about free tv'ers I get the impression that we are less valuable to the site.{NOT SO}We free tv'ers contribute by asking so called dumb questions ,as part of the learning process. I for one learned alot from free tv'er ,as they mostly talk in layman,s terms. I truly respect the testers who spend vasts amount of money in this hobby for all of us to reap the benefits of tv. However I am not in any way shape or form a lower class of citizen in the FTA/OTA world. When iks was a solution to tv.The main players on this site said it was a bad idea. I took their advice and did not go there.I know that they knew what they were talking about. "Thank you testers"for solid advice. "thank you free tv'ers" for asking so called dumb questions,because I was to shy to ask.

Spired, I agree with aid. I don't really care what they call me I just like to learn. I'll try anything. And if I succeed I share what I learned. (with out a spoon), lol.
I have a 2500 and learned much from Jvvh and others including Jtag and modding bins. I dabbled with Iks, CS and blackrock, DnsRedir. Not for free TV but to prove I could do it. Learn something new. Last project was rq-sssp with my CW800s. Once I got that it went back in the closet. My new project is wfmeu. It in itself (wfemu) is so simple but learning linux is a challenge but I'll get it and when I do that will be that. Back to True FTA and my OTA and Basic sub.
As for falcon and the Mods here, what ever they decide is good by me. I have a lot of folks I call friends here. Folks I respect, laugh with and have serious debates with....It's all good.
As long as Rookie is here I will be here too. JMHO.

aid
01-23-2011, 12:03 PM
I will keep this short as we are well on our way to jacking this thread. I have never liked that term free tver cause back in the day when I joined the site I would read that term and think ( are they calling me that?) If yah log in and your stuff is working then you are here to help and learn more and if you have reading this thread then you have more interest then just getting your TV back. I for one gave up testing some time ago because I never got anything to work but I love coming here and reading of everyone success.
Now lets get this thread on topic and if you want to start a thread on how you hate this term free tver then by all means feel free.

dssturk
01-23-2011, 03:13 PM
On topic...If I was the OP I would not have responded, unless I used my personal info anywhere down the line which it sounds like he did.
Hypothetically If I was to run IKS or something like that I would use an unkown group not DA as I have never heard anything that didn't have corrupt labeled with it.
Second, I would cover my ***. I would sign up from a public PC at the local library along with an account for WU or what ever method needed to pay. I would use an email created just for that reason. I would use a address of an empty lot in another town for address, a disposible cell phone for a phone # and a prepaid credit card to pay. All bought with cash and no link to me. Just a hypothetical b/c I don't run IKS or CS or anything illegal. JMHO

sodusme
01-23-2011, 03:29 PM
Its kind of hard though to deny your i.p. being logged on a server. Yes I know you can use proxies but most users don't know the ins and outs of those. Hell even the big boys at Nfusion don't know what the hell they are talking about when it comes to those. Its a lot harder to hide your anonymity when you're getting CW's streamed to you.

The rest sounds good though. ;)

FireHydrant
01-23-2011, 09:52 PM
What's even more awesome is when they not only have your IP logged to a server, but when they find a connection between your online Nickname AND being an IKS customer. Then they have a bunch of posts from people bragging about all the channels they are getting for free, signatures listing equipment being ran in their home, etc...

sodusme
01-23-2011, 10:11 PM
are there any stand alone fix for the veiw sat ul as yet can some one say

Sorry bud but this thread is about a legal issue. You'll get a better answer asking that question in the Viewsat area.

olympusom
01-23-2011, 10:16 PM
seeing things sod? lol i moved the post to the vs forum:)

wrangler
01-23-2011, 11:17 PM
Still sharp at 201 Oly. LMAO!

dbcooper365
01-23-2011, 11:39 PM
The staff here at Rookie have been debating what/how much discussion we are willing to permit. I agree SOME sites are placing their admins and members at a great risk I hope DSSRookie will in the end remain true to it's roots and continue as we always have to placing our members safety and security above "site traffic" or whatever other "short term benefits" these other sites are thinking they are getting.

For now our site rule 18 remains in force.

amazing that some admins and mods wont take the position against this and be true to the members , my only guess is there status is more important to them and the access it gives then the members themselves and i hope the members one day will see that, more so i hope the mods and admins at the sites will see that and reflect and turn a corner

olympusom
01-23-2011, 11:54 PM
Its not our place(or at least not my place) to take a position on the matter, only to maintain the site decorum and try to provide answers to those questions posed by our members. We as a staff have remained neutral regarding brands/manufacturers and have attempted to provide some direction/insight regarding certain issues. We take great pride in the safety we have provided to our members over the years.

I can safely say that our "status/access" is less important to us then that of our members as without you/them we wouldnt be here, some 317,000 strong

dbcooper365
01-24-2011, 12:55 AM
Its not our place(or at least not my place) to take a position on the matter, only to maintain the site decorum and try to provide answers to those questions posed by our members. We as a staff have remained neutral regarding brands/manufacturers and have attempted to provide some direction/insight regarding certain issues. We take great pride in the safety we have provided to our members over the years.

I can safely say that our "status/access" is less important to us then that of our members as without you/them we wouldnt be here, some 317,000 strong

i as a memeber am allowed to take the stance i do and thats ok with me and olympusom thanks for the position and your understanding, ive been a op and a mod for several years since 2003, my conscience is clear and clear being a member here , i share the same values

wrangler
01-24-2011, 12:59 AM
I'm sure that Rookie will take the high road concerning the quagmire that the community is now in. It's hard for me to believe that some sites will put themselves and their members in jeopardy just so some can make money off of their servers. Rookie has not ever condoned this type of behavior and never will as far as I know. This is why I stay here year after year. It's the safest place to get real information without taking an unecessary risk. My hat's off to staff here for doing a great job during trying times where they must walk a tightrope between info and safety. Plus, having some of the best members doesn't hurt either.

Gary Gnu
01-24-2011, 01:18 AM
I'm sure that Rookie will take the high road concerning the quagmire that the community is now in. It's hard for me to believe that some sites will put themselves and their members in jeopardy jsut so some can make money off of their servers. Rookie has not ever condoned this type of behavior and never will as far as I know. This is why I stay here year after year. It's the safest place to get real information without taking an unecessary risk. My hat's off to staff here for doing a great job during trying times where they must walk a tightrope between info and safety. Plus, having some of the best members doesn't hurt either.

Amen :p

dalerulesu
01-24-2011, 04:34 AM
quagmire???

giggity, giggity, giggity

sodusme
01-24-2011, 07:21 AM
quagmire???

giggity, giggity, giggity

hmm3grin2o

hedo2002
01-24-2011, 11:38 AM
There will be those who consider these letters to be fake, (most likely because they are using a PAY server, and want to THINK that they are safe). We as humans when we are doing something wrong we "try" to find reasons to justify our actions and fool ourselves into thinking that what we are doing wrong is somehow "justified". Many have maintained for some time that DN "will never go after the end users". They have used the reasoning that it would be too expensive. Or that the servers are "offshore" and therefore out of the reach of DN, or that there are simply too many end users for them to go after.

Given this reasoning then DN never would have went after Coder's seeders, etc. They did so and gained some level of success. Just as they will IMHO do so with these letters and end users. As we have seen DA's server wasn't in the US, so it was in some small way "offshore". The servers may be somewhere off shore BUT the Units and cards MUST be within the foot print of DN. Some have said no they too are off shore. IF it was possible to run a unti and card offshore, then why aren't people in say Hong Kong or Germany using US based addresses to get DN service in their locations? Why are Europeans living in the US watching the provider from their homeland?? BECAUSE it is IMPOSSIBLE to do so.

DN began it's REAL piracy fight by hitting Coder's, then they hit Seeder's, now they are going after PAY servers as well as the end users. They are REQUIRED by several US Federal agencies, to combat piracy. They are not going to just say well we stamped out most PUBLIC servers, (by killing off "seeders"), that is good enough. They WILL go after the PAY server's with a vengeance. This will lead them to end users. So make an INFORMED and educated decision about the risk involved with connecting to a PAY server.

IMHO this is the beginning of the end for PAY, servers, DN has shown it is NOT going to back down and will only continue to morph their attack tactics.

For those who STILL think I am protected I have paid by cash and I have used a "fake" email account, etc etc etc... Well the VAST majority of users have NO idea how to use a PROPER SECURE proxy. Therefore, YOUR IP is being logged on the server, and if DN gets a hold of that server don't count on the server OPS to protect YOU. YOU are EXPOSED and you may very well get a letter.

Therefore the ONLY real question that remains is:

Can I afford $3500 to send to DN in a period of 30 days? If I don't and they sue me, can my FAMILY afford say $5,000 or more from a lawsuit?

If not the BEST advice is get off that server right NOW, and do NOT connect to another server unless it is a TRUE PRIVATE server that YOU set up to run. (NOTE: This too violates your user agreement with DN but it is highly unlikely they are going to discover it).

dssturk
01-24-2011, 12:31 PM
Agreed hedo. DN is required to go after Piracy "NOT" only by Federal Regs but by Share Holders and the Companies that provide their programming. Like all Companies that have a Budget set aside for just that purpose.
I neither Condone Satellite Piracy or participate in it.
But I also believe they "DN" will go after the biggest return on their investment. If there were say 500,000 users of PAY Servers and 450,000 where taking little or NO precautions that would be the Biggest Bang for the Buck. Not only would I satisfy my legal obligations to the FED's and Share Holders but also to the companies that provide my programming.

I'm NOT saying that anyone is safe. Even a Tunnel Server can be taken down or have a deep packet scan run to find Illegal use. It's only a small bit of defence to slow them down and make it more costly to find those few. JMHO

I only post what IMO may help those that will "Insist" on going there be more informed.
I also agree that most members are "NOT" savvy enough (as you and sodusme both stated) to understand real proxy or even know what OS is running on the server they are connecting to. I bring this up because (and sodusme can confirm or correct me) a server running a Netware OS needs to LOG IP's where as a server running Windows OS does not.
Weather or not the OPS know the difference is not know.

The bottom line is still BE INFORMED. PPL that don't know how a PC works should not even take off the cover.

sodusme
01-24-2011, 12:56 PM
I can neither confirm nor deny that turk....LOL. I actually have never ran a server my friend. My stance on the proxy use is this...TCP protocol uses http proxies to mask the traffic. UDP protocol will use Socks V5 proxies to mask its traffic. If anyone is reading this and doesn't know the difference I suggest you read up on it and disconnect from your 'pay' server....until you do.

Here's a hint: UDP protocol is for 'streaming' content. ;)

hedo2002
01-24-2011, 02:02 PM
Well let's just clarify my statements are generalities and directed at the "average user". Yes there will be "some" users who as I stated will be savvy enough to avoid detection but MOST won't.

I know when I played with, (a couple of years ago the DB), MOST of the PRIVATE stuff was utilizing LINUX. I have no idea what these server ops are running nor does it really matter.

Let's look at it from a business point of view:

1. Is the server op REALLY concerned about the "security and safety" of his end users?

Likely not, he is going to go with the cheapest. easiest system he can get going. Most will have an "exit strategy" already built into their personal plans. They want to make as much as quickly as they can.

2. If he is told by a tech, I can set you up with a system for $100,000 that will permit you to "run" 10,000 end users but if the server gets seized ALL the user info will be there for them. OR I can set you up[ with a system that will protect EVERYONE of those 10,000 end users but it will cost you $350,000.

Which one do you think the server op is likely to choose? (THESE FIGURES are for DEMO purposes ONLY).

You also have to consider which is more stable, (remember just like a PC the more "bells and whistles" you add the less stable, (generally) the platform is). Then of course you need to factor in "operating costs, bandwidth costs, personnel costs, etc etc etc). Let's face it these people are in it to make as much money as they can as quickly as they can, (for they know it could ALL end tomorrow).

Then lastly, if someone who is setting up the server says to you, whose butt is more important to save YOURS, (server op), or your end users? What do YOU think the reply from the server op is likely to be???

wrangler
01-24-2011, 04:45 PM
It sounds like they need a "big red button"! LMAO!

Gary Gnu
01-24-2011, 04:59 PM
No Easy buttons this time ... But whether it was true or not, at least user info wasnt gotten from that server. ;)
I will give them that much.

sodusme
01-24-2011, 05:43 PM
No Easy buttons this time ... But whether it was true or not, at least user info wasnt gotten from that server. ;)
I will give them that much.

From what server? They had to of gotten user info. from DA's server....lest they wouldn't of known where to get a hold of this guy at?

dssturk
01-24-2011, 06:01 PM
Maybe they got what they needed from his personal PC b/c he kept records of who paid and what des key and PW and UN he issued to them..
Has any one considered that?

sodusme
01-24-2011, 06:17 PM
Its possible but the o.p specifically says the letter claims
shut down site where I had paid there month membership dish have my username and password.


Nagra actually seized 3 websites that this guy owned/operated.
www.darkangel.com.pa,
www.dark-angel.ca and
www.justintabish.com all of which now of course reroute to our buddies at s*tsc*ams. The country codes on those are .ca (Canada) and .pa (Panama). I'd wager that he was running his server from Panama. Just a hunch....

hedo2002
01-24-2011, 06:46 PM
No Easy buttons this time ... But whether it was true or not, at least user info wasnt gotten from that server. ;)
I will give them that much.

How can "you give them that much"?? It doesn't say WHERE the info was garnered from. So we can't "assume" it wasn't along with the Payment details, retrieved from the server.

So I won't be giving them ANYTHING. Well other than a big thumbs down for being an idiot, thinking he, (DA), was going to out smart DN. I doubt JJ is giving away all his "secrets"

Gary Gnu
01-24-2011, 06:52 PM
My comment was in regards to Wrangler mentioning the "red button" (The supposed F2A red button)

hedo2002
01-24-2011, 06:55 PM
My comment was in regards to Wrangler mentioning the "red button" (The supposed F2A red button)

Ok wanted to make sure the members didn't "assume" PAY servers are safe.

Gary Gnu
01-24-2011, 07:02 PM
At this point, I wouldnt consider any IKS server safe be it public or private.
There may be a more limitted paper trail with just buying a box off the shelf and using public iks, but they have been going after servers for so long already that its only a matter of time before they do get it and everything on it. It all boils down to what risk the end user is willing to take. Always has been and always will be. Some will make an informed decision and others as usual wont read first... lol

1919a6
01-24-2011, 08:24 PM
The game has changed.

They first phase was figuring out how to identify the seeders for the servers.

The next step was figuring out where the servers were and leaving the seeders up until the server is busted.

You can bet they already knew who the seeders were, but left them active to gather more intel from. I'm betting that either a seeder rolled or they busted the whole shebang and the seeders are next on the court docket.

hedo2002
01-24-2011, 09:06 PM
The game has changed.

They first phase was figuring out how to identify the seeders for the servers.

The next step was figuring out where the servers were and leaving the seeders up until the server is busted.

You can bet they already knew who the seeders were, but left them active to gather more intel from. I'm betting that either a seeder rolled or they busted the whole shebang and the seeders are next on the court docket.

A few of the seeders have already been through the court system, (mind you they were the PUBLIC server seeders). they were the ones posted in this very forum who were hit for 15 - 20 Million dollars each. Each time they busted the seeders or identified the cards we all knew about it as the server would magically go down for weeks on end. It isn't like you can just pick up the phone and order a whole new set of seeder cards...LOL

Just for those who haven't been following the bouncing ball..LOL

Seeder = the person who supplies Subbed cards to the server

Subbed card = exactly what it says someone, orders a subbed package from Dn then turns that card over to someone who turns it over to someone, who turns it over to someone...LOL at "some" point it makes it's way to the server OP. In today's climate the server OPS NEVER meet or know a seeder and vice versa. this way IF a seeder gets busted he knows NOTHING, not the sever OP or the location of the server.

sodusme
01-24-2011, 09:13 PM
A few of the seeders have already been through the court system, (mind you they were the PUBLIC server seeders). they were the ones posted in this very forum who were hit for 15 - 20 Million dollars each. Each time they busted the seeders or identified the cards we all knew about it as the server would magically go down for weeks on end. It isn't like you can just pick up the phone and order a whole new set of seeder cards...LOL

Just for those who haven't been following the bouncing ball..LOL

Seeder = the person who supplies Subbed cards to the server

Subbed card = exactly what it says someone, orders a subbed package from Dn then turns that card over to someone who turns it over to someone, who turns it over to someone...LOL at "some" point it makes it's way to the server OP. In today's climate the server OPS NEVER meet or know a seeder and vice versa. this way IF a seeder gets busted he knows NOTHING, not the sever OP or the location of the server.

They'll be next you can bet on it....

Source: Tabish's court documents


solicited others to provide "TSOP" images of DiSH Network receivers and to activate subscriptions to support the operation of the Dark Angel IKS Servers, thereby inducing them to breach their Residential Customer Agreements with DiSH Network;

I have no idea what a 'TSOP image' is as I don't play with plastic (the fumes give me a headache) but I'm sure some of you will know what that phrase is. It sounds like they are/were well aware of his operation from the inside out....

1919a6
01-24-2011, 10:40 PM
Looks like they might have been using cardless receivers.

Gibson49
01-24-2011, 11:01 PM
Looks like they might have been using cardless receivers.

It doesn't really matter as my 722 has a CARD, but my 722k
doesn't.... and what got me my 722 had a s19 # but they
couldn't authorize it so sent me a free card overnight and
all fine... All older IRD's have cards....

How the IKS thing works and seeding I am totally lost.
Don't care either as I own my own boxes and SUB!

I guess all they needed was a active box and from there
they have the scam all ready, to get Fishes...

1919a6
01-24-2011, 11:28 PM
My commercial accounts all needed new cards too, even though they had good #s or were new units.

Blinky123
01-24-2011, 11:54 PM
I have no idea what a 'TSOP image' is as I don't play with plastic (the fumes give me a headache) but I'm sure some of you will know what that phrase is. It sounds like they are/were well aware of his operation from the inside out....


The TSOP is a chip inside the DN receiver that can be changed to be used for Card Sharing (Same as IKS but with a DN receiver instead for an FTA receiver). The image would be the .bin file that is used to change it. It contains the IRD number and the Box Keys.

DA also supported Card Share with DN receivers.

sodusme
01-25-2011, 06:26 AM
The TSOP is a chip inside the DN receiver that can be changed to be used for Card Sharing (Same as IKS but with a DN receiver instead for an FTA receiver). The image would be the .bin file that is used to change it. It contains the IRD number and the Box Keys.

DA also supported Card Share with DN receivers.

Ahhh very interesting thanks for the description. I see they also state:

created and distributed piracy software and satellite hardware modified for piracy purposes, including by developing IKS Server hardware, that includes an internal computer and multiple Access Card readers, thereby creating a self-contained IKS Server configuration with all required components built into one "box"

Sounds like this guy had quite the 'hookup' no pun intended....LOL.

dssturk
02-13-2011, 11:11 AM
TSOP stands for Thin Small Outline Package and as Blinky said it's a chip in Some DN IRD's that can be read and written to Via Jtag similar to FTA receivers.
Replaced in newer DN IRD's with BGA (Ball Grid Array) chip which is not Jtagable.

The BGA can still be reprogrammed but is much more difficult.
I read this some where, :)

dummyguru
04-20-2011, 11:05 AM
well while all this was interesting read? and even if i had to skip forward to last post? i finally realized just what this was all about...

the constant posts that DN will go after end-users is almost laughable i say almost b/c i know some will take offense so i am being kind...

i wonder why , after all these yrs, IKS endusers are enjoying public and private connections...the answer is simple...if you are NOT in this game as a seeder user yourself and sharing those with others while setting up shop down the street (overseas) or wherever? you are NOT the target...

only those who are doing this are the targets...period...dn went on a fishing expedition sometime last yr with letters asking for snithches to help them (nag)locate these servers for a small (laughable) reward...this is b/c many of these servers will NEVER be located....

it is mind boggling that there are still those spreading the doom and gloom to end users when NOT one - to this day - has ever been sued in any way shape or form for simply dlld'ing an FTA file for their box and then files to unscramble dn's channels on any FTA site for the purpose of connecting via iks

having said that? sure it is also a target for dn to go after these fta sites that offer the bins BUT even "that" is and will prove futile as a way of shutting down, IKS...i can go on and on...

similar to those spreading doom and gloom? in this thread and others? i will simply repeat...nothing will ever reach the end-users by simply connecting their box to servers..public or private...the day THAT happens? is the day i win the lottery, NOT bloody likely. lol a whole lot of paranohia - imho

dbcooper365
04-20-2011, 11:36 AM
well while all this was interesting read? and even if i had to skip forward to last post? i finally realized just what this was all about...

the constant posts that DN will go after end-users is almost laughable i say almost b/c i know some will take offense so i am being kind...

i wonder why , after all these yrs, IKS endusers are enjoying public and private connections...the answer is simple...if you are NOT in this game as a seeder user yourself and sharing those with others while setting up shop down the street (overseas) or wherever? you are NOT the target...

only those who are doing this are the targets...period...dn went on a fishing expedition sometime last yr with letters asking for snithches to help them (nag)locate these servers for a small (laughable) reward...this is b/c many of these servers will NEVER be located....

it is mind boggling that there are still those spreading the doom and gloom to end users when NOT one - to this day - has ever been sued in any way shape or form for simply dlld'ing an FTA file for their box and then files to unscramble dn's channels on any FTA site for the purpose of connecting via iks

having said that? sure it is also a target for dn to go after these fta sites that offer the bins BUT even "that" is and will prove futile as a way of shutting down, IKS...i can go on and on...

similar to those spreading doom and gloom? in this thread and others? i will simply repeat...nothing will ever reach the end-users by simply connecting their box to servers..public or private...the day THAT happens? is the day i win the lottery, NOT bloody likely. lol a whole lot of paranohia - imho

you should really remove the rock you came from under as I think you might have bumped your head on it, Dn really doesnt like people profitting off there signal exept themselves of course, they actualy take offence to it and try to stop that sort of thing, call them crazy, granted public iks and bin files can be futile for shut down but make no mistake pull the hamburger off charlies table and he might bite

wrangler
04-20-2011, 02:05 PM
There's a big difference btween D/Ling bin files and having your reciever hooked up 24/7 to a pay server with a money trail and an IP address leading right to your door. You're going to need that lottery money! It amazes me that people think they can so obviously steal something and the merchant isn't going to do anything about it.